Electrical question.

[Buckaroo]

I think I would first establish the power is off to the aforementioned open box before attempting to fit a 13amp socket outlet. So it will require a multimeter or some test to find the circuit breaker first. You probably meant to say this.

No I did not include the obvious need to switch off power at the mains before commencing electrical work any more than I would remind anyone to breathe or pick up a screwdriver from the handle.

Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM is a simple epithet which works here too. The OP asks for electrical advice and the best advice is to get an electrician. A rather obvious suggestion which I need not even ask if the OP considered, it's always best to get a professional.

What's the best way to cook a steak? Get Gordon Ramsey to do it.

To assume has cost many lives.

[Taipan]

Thanks guys and I do ahve a DMM and lighty up screwdriver and certainly know how to isolate and check if its live etc. I'm round there tomorrow waiting for Sky to turn up and install his internet, so will have a look-see at everything then.

[Yorick]

Thanks guys and I do ahve a DMM and lighty up screwdriver and certainly know how to isolate and check if its live etc. I'm round there tomorrow waiting for Sky to turn up and install his internet, so will hood a look-see at everything then.

Spray a hosepipe in to clean everything first and stand in a bucket of water.

[Couchy]

Probably a cooker socket. Only problem with fitting a 3pin socket is that it will have a dedicated 32A breaker so if you plug anything dodgy into it, it will take 32A before the breaker trips. Not a problem really unless you have a habit of fitting "nevablow" fuses into your devices (i.e. a chunk of nail).

I would look out for a "cooker" breaker in the distribution box, fit a socket to the offending outlet (assuming you're happy to wire sockets), plug in a random power thing and see if it turns off at the breaker.

You're forgetting the plug has a fuse in, ring mains are 32A protected in pretty much every house

No. You're not reading my post. I specifically address that issue.

Read it again.

But if you put a nail in a plug and plug it into a ring main you have the same problem. You can also get cooker switches with a socket on them too on the same 32A breaker. It’s a non issue.

[Screwdriver]

But if you put a nail in a plug and plug it into a ring main you have the same problem. You can also get cooker switches with a socket on them too on the same 32A breaker. It’s a non issue.

Yes. Again that is what I said in my reply. It is not a problem using a cooker point (if that's what it is) for a single socket.

The only possible issue might be if that happens to be the only 32A supply with multiple smaller or fast acting breakers on the ringmain(s). Plus of course, if you are sharing a 32A RCD or RCBO on a ringmain with fridge, freezer, washing machine, tumble drier etc. etc., a 32A breaker is going to trip way earlier if you overload one of the sockets. A cooker socket will typically have a single heavy duty cable directly connected to the breaker. It will always be able to deliver a huge amount of current, unlike a ringmain which might be able to.

Like I said, in the real world there's no problem installing a socket on a radial circuit but I rather suspect it won't be code and probably for the reasons I outlined. It's been years since I had to bother with the regulatory side of electrical installations and this newfangled part p thing.

[Screwdriver]

Thanks guys and I do ahve a DMM and lighty up screwdriver and certainly know how to isolate and check if its live etc. I'm round there tomorrow waiting for Sky to turn up and install his internet, so will have a look-see at everything then.

Good to know. I guessed as much.

@Buckaroo is assuming you are an idiot.

[Couchy]

But if you put a nail in a plug and plug it into a ring main you have the same problem. You can also get cooker switches with a socket on them too on the same 32A breaker. It’s a non issue.

Yes. Again that is what I said in my reply. It is not a problem using a cooker point (if that's what it is) for a single socket.

The only possible issue might be if that happens to be the only 32A supply with multiple smaller or fast acting breakers on the ringmain(s). Plus of course, if you are sharing a 32A RCD or RCBO on a ringmain with fridge, freezer, washing machine, tumble drier etc. etc., a 32A breaker is going to trip way earlier if you overload one of the sockets. A cooker socket will typically have a single heavy duty cable directly connected to the breaker. It will always be able to deliver a huge amount of current, unlike a ringmain which might be able to.

Like I said, in the real world there's no problem installing a socket on a radial circuit but I rather suspect it won't be code and probably for the reasons I outlined. It's been years since I had to bother with the regulatory side of electrical installations and this newfangled part p thing.

You’re rambling and not making much sense mate Part P hasn’t added any new regs it’s still BS7671, there’s no issue with a socket on a radial circuit at all. I’ve no idea what you mean by multiple or smaller fast acting breakers on the ring main. You’re using a little knowledge and overthinking it all to make it all sound complicated. I’ll step away now as it’s far more interesting reading hearsay and DIY advice than that of a qualified sparky

[Screwdriver]

You’re rambling and not making much sense mate Part P hasn’t added any new regs it’s still BS7671, there’s no issue with a socket on a radial circuit at all. I’ve no idea what you mean by multiple or smaller fast acting breakers on the ring main. You’re using a little knowledge and overthinking it all to make it all sound complicated. I’ll step away now as it’s far more interesting reading hearsay and DIY advice than that of a qualified sparky

Well it is a minor and irrelevant non-issue, which is why I said there is no problem with using this outlet assuming it is a cooker point.

I then offer a few suggestions regarding how to discover if it is one and what, if any issues, may arise.

I then get into a long drawn out detailed argument on the triviality of these differences I suggest are trivial. Go figure...

Anyhow, I am shocked that you appear to be unfamiliar with the different types and ratings of circuit breakers. There is a range of types of MCB from type A (I would say the "weakest") all the way to "Z" which is a new one on me as I Google this point.

A few years ago I had problems with my shed tripping out the house supply every time the compressor kicked in. The solution was to change the common "type C" MCB (which trips at 5-10x the rated current) for a type D (which only trips at 10-20x the rated current). That cured the issue.

Most people would be surprised to discover an MCB has such an overcapacity which is why (I suggest!) conversations like this can be useful. Despite arguing how much more qualified you are than I am (you have no idea what my qualifications are obviously!) you have just learned about the different ratings. If you follow this up, you will also discover these different ratings (clearly marked on the outside of an MCB) also can be used to change the operating time before an MCB will trip.

Educate yourself: https://mechatrofice.com/electrical/dif ... d-type-mcb

...and rather than insist you're too highly qualified to demean yourself by engaging in this discussion, enjoy a slice of humble pie.

[mangocrazy]

I’ve no idea what you mean by multiple or smaller fast acting breakers on the ring main.

Anyhow, I am shocked that you appear to be unfamiliar with the different types and ratings of circuit breakers. There is a range of types of MCB from type A (I would say the "weakest") all the way to "Z" which is a new one on me as I Google this point.

A few years ago I had problems with my shed tripping out the house supply every time the compressor kicked in. The solution was to change the common "type C" MCB (which trips at 5-10x the rated current) for a type D (which only trips at 10-20x the rated current). That cured the issue.

So Couchy's point still stands. What are these multiple or smaller fast acting breakers of which ye speak? There are MCBs that have different over-current trip thresholds as you have laboriously pointed out, but they are not 'faster acting' or 'multiple'. How indeed would you fit multiple MCBs on a single circuit?

[Screwdriver]

So Couchy's point still stands. What are these multiple or smaller fast acting breakers of which ye speak? There are MCBs that have different over-current trip thresholds as you have laboriously pointed out, but they are not 'faster acting' or 'multiple'. How indeed would you fit multiple MCBs on a single circuit?

Oh, aren't they? How do you know? Have you made a note of the various MCBs in the distribution unit?

You do not fit "multiple MCBs on a single circuit" and I have no idea why you are suggesting that. A distribution or consumer unit is going to have multiple MCBs for multiple separate circuits. One of which will be dedicated to a cooker.

As I said earlier, the only (potential) difference is that if this is a separate cooker point, it will be a radial spur and therefore have its own breaker which by definition will not be shared with any other. They could be the same 32A C type as a typical ringmain, 16A is another common value if there are multiple ringmains.

[Taipan]

It’s live and on the sockets circuit. I’ll fit a socket to it now I know that. Dunno why they didn’t do that or put a blanking cover on it, but I guess as it’s hidden behind the fridge/freezer they didn’t need it working or worried about safety? Or if they were like me, it’s on the list of jobs I never get round to!

[Couchy]

You’re rambling and not making much sense mate Part P hasn’t added any new regs it’s still BS7671, there’s no issue with a socket on a radial circuit at all. I’ve no idea what you mean by multiple or smaller fast acting breakers on the ring main. You’re using a little knowledge and overthinking it all to make it all sound complicated. I’ll step away now as it’s far more interesting reading hearsay and DIY advice than that of a qualified sparky

Well it is a minor and irrelevant non-issue, which is why I said there is no problem with using this outlet assuming it is a cooker point.

I then offer a few suggestions regarding how to discover if it is one and what, if any issues, may arise.

I then get into a long drawn out detailed argument on the triviality of these differences I suggest are trivial. Go figure...

Anyhow, I am shocked that you appear to be unfamiliar with the different types and ratings of circuit breakers. There is a range of types of MCB from type A (I would say the "weakest") all the way to "Z" which is a new one on me as I Google this point.

A few years ago I had problems with my shed tripping out the house supply every time the compressor kicked in. The solution was to change the common "type C" MCB (which trips at 5-10x the rated current) for a type D (which only trips at 10-20x the rated current). That cured the issue.

Most people would be surprised to discover an MCB has such an overcapacity which is why (I suggest!) conversations like this can be useful. Despite arguing how much more qualified you are than I am (you have no idea what my qualifications are obviously!) you have just learned about the different ratings. If you follow this up, you will also discover these different ratings (clearly marked on the outside of an MCB) also can be used to change the operating time before an MCB will trip.

Educate yourself: https://mechatrofice.com/electrical/dif ... d-type-mcb

...and rather than insist you're too highly qualified to demean yourself by engaging in this discussion, enjoy a slice of humble pie.

I haven’t learned anything new about MCB ratings. You also describe some of them as fast acting, the difference in them is how much start up load current they take not in how quick they react. The over capacity you state is for start up on items like your compressor. If you think a breaker trips at 5-10x it’s rated correct you’re puddled, it’s designed to not trip during start up loads, plus it’s not as simple as that as you’ll see if you read BS7671 and look at the curve of the MCB. You’re mixing up tripping currents with start up currents, as I said a little knowledge used the wrong way.
Also I assume before you put the type D in you checked the Zs of the circuit as the allowable Zs for a type D is a whole lot lower than a B or C ?, needs to be within spec to ensure the MCB trips within 0.4s or 5s as required, just making sure you’re safe

[Couchy]

So Couchy's point still stands. What are these multiple or smaller fast acting breakers of which ye speak? There are MCBs that have different over-current trip thresholds as you have laboriously pointed out, but they are not 'faster acting' or 'multiple'. How indeed would you fit multiple MCBs on a single circuit?

Oh, aren't they? How do you know? Have you made a note of the various MCBs in the distribution unit?

You do not fit "multiple MCBs on a single circuit" and I have no idea why you are suggesting that. A distribution or consumer unit is going to have multiple MCBs for multiple separate circuits. One of which will be dedicated to a cooker.

As I said earlier, the only (potential) difference is that if this is a separate cooker point, it will be a radial spur and therefore have its own breaker which by definition will not be shared with any other. They could be the same 32A C type as a typical ringmain, 16A is another common value if there are multiple ringmains.

I too would love to hear what these fast acting breakers are ?
Also 16A is not common for a ring main even if there are multiple. By definition a ring main is a 32A circuit.
Also a radial circuit is not always feeding one point it can feed several points with no problems.

[Screwdriver]

Google working overtime again.

[Sunny]

Google working overtime again.

[...] a new one on me as I Google this point.[...]

Meanwhile Couchy is a real life sparky.

Discussion rather than argument would be nice.

[Couchy]

Google working overtime again.

Fucks sake, I design electrical installations for a living but you know what carry on talking bollox I’ll keep my qualified comments to myself

[Screwdriver]

Google working overtime again.

[...] a new one on me as I Google this point.[...]

Meanwhile Couchy is a real life sparky.

Discussion rather than argument would be nice.

OK the pedant in me can't resist pointing out where he is in fact wrong.

I have already linked to an article describing fast acting breakers so am mystified as to why he still has to question their existence.

A ring main is not "by definition a 32A circuit" it is a topology and merely refers to the layout of the connections, i.e. in a ring (unsurprisingly).

Nobody says a radial circuit is always feeding one point so this straw man argument is moot. What I did say is that a cooker supply is an example of a radial circuit and a cooker point will always be a dedicated supply.

Kind of reminds me I ought to get back up to speed with current regs because I don't believe for a moment that "all rignmains are 32A " either. The cooker reminds me that kitchens in particular used to have varying requirements for different capacity breakers - and not all 32A either! Whether that's because they might be radial rather than ringmain is a pedantic issue too far for me.

Anyhow, this has been fun but I have stuff to do. Will pop back later to see what Google has to say.

[Couchy]

Oh do fuck off with your Google comments

[Screwdriver]

PS I probably ought to say if @Couchy ouchy really is a proper sparky then I have the utmost respect for a tradesman who does that job day in day out. I have no doubt he will know ten times more than I ever will about how to perform electrical installations. Maybe 100 times.

Having said that, if I make a statement and get picked up on the technical veracity of my comment, I'm gonna argue the toss until I am proved wrong. That ain't happened yet.

<edit> cross post, just too slow. Yeah the Google thing is a wind up. Did it work then?

[Yorick]

Oh do fuck off with your Google comments