Talk to me about braking with the rear brake

[Noggin]

I love the 'overthinking the theory' line... followed by a bunch of braking theory...

Yes but, nobody's ever listened to anything I've had to say before.

It sounds more like Swiss Tony, "Using the back brake is like making love to a beautiful woman, lovingly caress the brake while feeling her reaction."

I'm gonna have to use a LOT of imagination

[Noggin]

Well, not in the last two weeks, but the long weekend before I did more miles/kms than I've done in total since I crashed in 2017! 6 days of a long weekend and rode for three days - 600 ish kms each way and probably 250-300kms on the rideout.

I did work out just before getting to my friends' place why I was taught to put my toes on the pegs - scraped the toe of my boot on the ground going around a corner trying to keep my feet on the pegs/closer to the levers!! Gave me a bit of a shock and reminded me the reason (someone asked earlier in the thread why)

Today's very short little ride I did try and have my feet on the pegs but with my toes pointing forward - I think that generally when I have my feet flat on the pegs, my toes point out so as to move to the leaver easier. I'm not sure it makes that much difference, so I'm having a little practice - sometimes!

Overall, the return from La Creuse made a massive difference to my riding. I went the back roads until my left hand/wrist gave up with all the gear changing (for 7 hours!) and it was awesome. Up and down and twisty turny When I went out yesterday and today I did automatically feel way more comfortable than pre-weekend away. Bonus

I'm back to using both brakes a bit more evenly but at least I don't have to think so much about the rear now


Thanx for all the help and advice

[iansoady]

That seems to me a good reason for riding instep on the pegs - early warning of a perhaps excessive lean angle. Although perhaps this is a bit excessive:

[Horse]

That seems to me a good reason for riding instep on the pegs - early warning of a perhaps excessive lean angle. Although perhaps this is a bit excessive:

I've seen another photo like that, but leaking red ... Note the state of the knee leather too - no slider.

Foot position isn't a single, once and for all, choice

It can't be if you need to change gear or use the rear brake

But it can be part of set-up ahead of a bend, no different to position within the lane (or out of it), speed and gear, and all the other choices such as body position back/forward or sideways (in-line, 'kiss the mirror', hanging off / knee skimming). And if you're really hanging off, then you need to consider adjusting how you hold the throttle.

And that's road & track - there's probably a whole other set of variables for dirt riding.

[Styan]

I use it to smooth out my stops and keep things steady on tricky terrain.

[Count Steer]

^^^^ is a very generic summary of the application of the rear brake. Care to expand.....

[Horse]

^^^^ is a very generic summary of the application of the rear brake. Care to expand.....

Just to see, I asked Chat GPT:

"You are an experienced motorcyclist. Please tell me the key points about when to use the rear brake on a motorcycle. Be succinct, no more than three instances where the rear brake is beneficial. No more than a single sentence for each example you give. Do not use jargon or very technical terms that a novice might not understand."


1. When coming to a complete stop: The rear brake can help stabilize the motorcycle and prevent it from tipping over when coming to a stop.

2. When making slow, tight turns: Using the rear brake can help control the speed and balance of the motorcycle while navigating through tight spaces or sharp turns.

3. When riding on slippery surfaces: Gently applying the rear brake can help prevent the rear wheel from sliding out on wet or slippery roads.

[Noggin]

That seems to me a good reason for riding instep on the pegs - early warning of a perhaps excessive lean angle. Although perhaps this is a bit excessive:

TBF, I wore the front fairings out on my Blackbird - was totally gutted as it was a custom paintjob (And only road riding, no crashing, that came later!) But, despite wearing patches out on the fairing, I wouldn't have said it was 'excessive' lean cos it never fell over due to cornering But surely if he had the instep on the pegs but his toes pointed out, then that would happen? Toes on pegs feels 'safer'!! LOL

(And I wear proper strong boots with toes sliders Have no need for knee sliders cos my knees only go down if I crash )

Foot position isn't a single, once and for all, choice

It can't be if you need to change gear or use the rear brake

But it can be part of set-up ahead of a bend, no different to position within the lane (or out of it), speed and gear, and all the other choices such as body position back/forward or sideways (in-line, 'kiss the mirror', hanging off / knee skimming). And if you're really hanging off, then you need to consider adjusting how you hold the throttle.

And that's road & track - there's probably a whole other set of variables for dirt riding.

I do move my feet a lot, but I know I was taught to do that so that I can keep my toes on the pegs when not needing to change gear/brake. I guess I must have learnt to do all that on the track as well, but even on track I never got my knee down unless I crashed!! Apparently all I had to do was move my knee out - body position was good, cornering good, I just didn't move my knee outwards enough! I had knee sliders for track but they've never been 'used'! LOL

But I do think I must have essentially 'danced' on the pegs on road and track!!

[iansoady]

^^^^ is a very generic summary of the application of the rear brake. Care to expand.....

Just to see, I asked Chat GPT:

"You are an experienced motorcyclist. Please tell me the key points about when to use the rear brake on a motorcycle. Be succinct, no more than three instances where the rear brake is beneficial. No more than a single sentence for each example you give. Do not use jargon or very technical terms that a novice might not understand."


1. When coming to a complete stop: The rear brake can help stabilize the motorcycle and prevent it from tipping over when coming to a stop.

2. When making slow, tight turns: Using the rear brake can help control the speed and balance of the motorcycle while navigating through tight spaces or sharp turns.

3. When riding on slippery surfaces: Gently applying the rear brake can help prevent the rear wheel from sliding out on wet or slippery roads.

Seems fair enough. I see that chatgpt did better than 80% of students in a blinded study of exam questions....

[Horse]

1. When coming to a complete stop: The rear brake can help stabilize the motorcycle and prevent it from tipping over when coming to a stop.

2. When making slow, tight turns: Using the rear brake can help control the speed and balance of the motorcycle while navigating through tight spaces or sharp turns.

3. When riding on slippery surfaces: Gently applying the rear brake can help prevent the rear wheel from sliding out on wet or slippery roads.

Seems fair enough.

Well ...

1. It won't prevent the bike tipping over. Stopping with the bike upright will, though.

2. OK

3. 'ish', if it means to limit the amount of power. If, however, it means braking in slippery conditions, that may be less helpful.

I see that chatgpt did better than 80% of students in a blinded study of exam questions....

And not detected by the examiners

[The Spin Doctor]

1. It won't prevent the bike tipping over. Stopping with the bike upright will, though.

Not on its own... but something that was very obvious once we switched from 125s to the much taller and heavier DAS bikes was how much the front fork 'bounce-back' when riders stopped using only the front brake, or even front and rear together, destabilised the bikes. We had quite a few crashes as a result of riders being unbalanced and losing their footing. Getting riders to use both brakes then ease off the front a metre or two before coming to a standstill (and looking where they were putting their left foot) really helped.

3. 'ish', if it means to limit the amount of power. If, however, it means braking in slippery conditions, that may be less helpful.

That's one of the techniques I taught for years... I learned it from a guy who raced CB900s in the Avon Production series - he said the motors were putting out 120-odd hp and the Avon tyres were hopeless in the wet... he used to control the wheelspin with the rear brake, and said he'd often go through a set of rear pads in a meeting if it was wet. It's become less valuable since TC.

[Yorick]

1. It won't prevent the bike tipping over. Stopping with the bike upright will, though.

Not on its own... but something that was very obvious once we switched from 125s to the much taller and heavier DAS bikes was how much the front fork 'bounce-back' when riders stopped using only the front brake, or even front and rear together, destabilised the bikes. We had quite a few crashes as a result of riders being unbalanced and losing their footing. Getting riders to use both brakes then ease off the front a metre or two before coming to a standstill (and looking where they were putting their left foot) really helped.

3. 'ish', if it means to limit the amount of power. If, however, it means braking in slippery conditions, that may be less helpful.

That's one of the techniques I taught for years... I learned it from a guy who raced CB900s in the Avon Production series - he said the motors were putting out 120-odd hp and the Avon tyres were hopeless in the wet... he used to control the wheelspin with the rear brake, and said he'd often go through a set of rear pads in a meeting if it was wet. It's become less valuable since TC.

Why not control the wheelspin with the throttle. Works for me when I had 50% more power.

[The Spin Doctor]

Why not control the wheelspin with the throttle. Works for me when I had 50% more power.

Cos we're not all as good as you Yorick

Mostly because when the rear end lets go on a non-traction control machine, it spins up almost instantly... I nearly highsided my GSX-R750 when I turned into a side road to discover a three foot metal plate over a trench - there had been a short shower a few moments earlier and the tarmac had dried in the sun but the metal was wet. I was out the seat and halfway over the bars after the tyre hit tarmac and gripped again.

If you have a toe on the rear brake it gives you a degree of control - it won't stop the slide but it will stop the wheel spinning. Slides are generally controllable.

[Yorick]

Why not control the wheelspin with the throttle. Works for me when I had 50% more power.

Cos we're not all as good as you Yorick

Mostly because when the rear end lets go on a non-traction control machine, it spins up almost instantly... I nearly highsided my GSX-R750 when I turned into a side road to discover a three foot metal plate over a trench - there had been a short shower a few moments earlier and the tarmac had dried in the sun but the metal was wet. I was out the seat and halfway over the bars after the tyre hit tarmac and gripped again.

If you have a toe on the rear brake it gives you a degree of control - it won't stop the slide but it will stop the wheel spinning. Slides are generally controllable.

Shutting the throttle gives same effect as applying the brake.
Why balance hand and foot?

Just use the hand, both ways.

[The Spin Doctor]

Shutting the throttle gives same effect as applying the brake.
Why balance hand and foot?

Just use the hand, both ways.

Remember... I'm not training track riders, often quite inexperienced riders. Shut the throttle too hard when wheelspinning and you can highside.

Happened to me once, when the rear wheel locked up due to a brake shoe delaminating. The rear just went broadside on, then I took a short flight. That was on the Harrow Road in NW London.

[Horse]

1. It won't prevent the bike tipping over. Stopping with the bike upright will, though.

Not on its own... but something that was very obvious once we switched from 125s to the much taller and heavier DAS bikes was how much the front fork 'bounce-back' when riders stopped using only the front brake,

Similarish with returning riders on BMWs with long travel front suspension. Especially if they panic, stick both feet out and are left with just the front brake. And, in that panic, they grab a big handful.

A lot of our Born Again of course was designed to save expensive plastics replacement

[The Spin Doctor]

Similarish with returning riders on BMWs with long travel front suspension. Especially if they panic, stick both feet out and are left with just the front brake. And, in that panic, they grab a big handful.

And if they are a bit challenged in the leg department, as soon the front end rebounds, they're left with feet in mid-air

I lost count of how many times I pulled up just behind a trainee and caught the bike by the grab rail before it toppled