Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 10:01 am
If you want a genuinely fair picture you'd also have to add in how much each group "gets" from Tax.
Benefits obviously. But then how do you place a value on policing or financial regulation or arts development or or or or...
Then it gets complicated. I'd say most of us benefit to some degree that people (some!) get benefits. I don't think it would be very nice living in a place where the elderly that need benefits (like Council tax reduction etc) didn't get them or that people couldn't work because they don't get £ to help pay for nursery school etc. (It's a shame that nursery schools have become essential but that's the way things have become and we're not ever going back to the way things were).
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Voltaire
It annoys and amuses me when people say "I never get a penny in benefits", in reality any vaguely normal UK citizen will have received tens of thousands in direct spending by the time they're an adult (being born in a hospital, school, child benefits, free eye tests etc etc...) and then will continue to reap the rewards of government spending for their whole life, even if they never step foot in a government run institution again.
You don't need to directly receive benefits to benefit from them.
matt wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:23 am
I'm on about tax avoidance and loop holes,not about normal people who pay it
Pretty much every sensible person practices tax avoidance. E.g. my wife has very little income, I have transferred 10% of her personal allowance to me, thus avoiding tax. Or is that not the tax avoidance you're referring to? It is a well established point of law that a person is not required to arrange his affairs so that he pays the maximum amount of tax.
You seem to be under the illusion that tax is a good thing, that governments can spend money more wisely than individuals, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, and therefore "the rich" should pay more tax. Well, in world terms, YOU are the rich. How much more tax do you want to pay?
I remember when the Wallace and gromit fella was in charge of labour and he was coming out with reasonably sensible things, more.money for NHS and police and blah blah and fairness and tax the rich and I thought yeah right, fair enough. And then the clouds cleared and a beam of light shone down from the heavens and in a moment of clarity I suddenly realised, he meant me. Yeah. Get fucked.
gremlin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:31 pm
I've had conversations in Italy (in English, thankfully, as my Italian isn't at political discussion level), and been told that many of them wish they could leave the EU (Italexit?). I suspect any EU country has their share of leavers/remainers.
As for the 'balls up made of it'. The EU was hellbent to make sure Brexit was as painful as possible, to make sure no other country got that idea in their head, like a bitter ex-spouse, determined to extract as much pain from the divorce as they can.
Helped massively by a set of politicians who basically sat back and said, "fuck-it - lets just see what happens cos we can't be arsed to negotiate/don't give a hsit what happens as it doesn't actually affect us or our offspring"
I'm sure there are always people that will want to leave. Same as not everyone wanted Brexit. But here, there used to be a lot of Frexit posters/signs all over the place. But none around now
Wonder if that will change now Le Pen looks like getting in?
gremlin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:31 pm
I've had conversations in Italy (in English, thankfully, as my Italian isn't at political discussion level), and been told that many of them wish they could leave the EU (Italexit?). I suspect any EU country has their share of leavers/remainers.
As for the 'balls up made of it'. The EU was hellbent to make sure Brexit was as painful as possible, to make sure no other country got that idea in their head, like a bitter ex-spouse, determined to extract as much pain from the divorce as they can.
Helped massively by a set of politicians who basically sat back and said, "fuck-it - lets just see what happens cos we can't be arsed to negotiate/don't give a hsit what happens as it doesn't actually affect us or our offspring"
I'm sure there are always people that will want to leave. Same as not everyone wanted Brexit. But here, there used to be a lot of Frexit posters/signs all over the place. But none around now
Wonder if that will change now Le Pen looks like getting in?
Now Macron has dissolved the French parliament that may well change.
Momentum seem determined for Starmer to lose but he's doing a pretty good job himself as he's already as he's gone all in with the pro-Palestine protestors. The UK declaring Palestine as an independent state for an election whim seems rather rash.
Mussels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Momentum seem determined for Starmer to lose but he's doing a pretty good job himself as he's already as he's gone all in with the pro-Palestine protestors. The UK declaring Palestine as an independent state for an election whim seems rather rash.
That wouldn't be a decision made on a whim. Labour will have taken poll soundings and realised it's a net vote winner.
Mussels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Momentum seem determined for Starmer to lose but he's doing a pretty good job himself as he's already as he's gone all in with the pro-Palestine protestors. The UK declaring Palestine as an independent state for an election whim seems rather rash.
That wouldn't be a decision made on a whim. Labour will have taken poll soundings and realised it's a net vote winner.
He probably feels the need to dilute the vote losses in places they should win but where he's upset the Muslim vote by not calling for a ceasefire early on. A number of ex-Labour people are standing as independents and could win or seriously split the vote.
(Weighed up against whether the votes he loses actually cost any constituencies).
Might cost in terms of support funding too but I guess votes are what it's all about now.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Voltaire
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:33 pm
Perhaps it's time that every Party should have a published manifesto, revised every year but one they had to stand on if it came to an election.
The present system of bribing the electorate with false promises is getting out of hand.
It would just be wish list or generic 'secure by hand or by brain the fruits of their labour' stuff because they won't know the state of the economy in the future. ie that when they get into power the cupboard is bare and there's £11bn pa out the door in interest payments.
But yes, it's tedious and amazing that a) they do this pork barrel stuff every time b) some people fall for it every time.
(The other thing of course is that, if it's in the manifesto, the Lords will not obstruct 'the will of the people' so it makes sense to put some tricky stuff on page 178).
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Voltaire
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:33 pm
Perhaps it's time that every Party should have a published manifesto, revised every year but one they had to stand on if it came to an election.
The present system of bribing the electorate with false promises is getting out of hand.
Just as aside. How many folk are swayed by the promises?
I'd assume the majority will have made their mind up firmly, ages ago.
Mussels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Momentum seem determined for Starmer to lose but he's doing a pretty good job himself as he's already as he's gone all in with the pro-Palestine protestors. The UK declaring Palestine as an independent state for an election whim seems rather rash.
A precursor of the forthcoming power struggle likely to engulf the Labour Party, when it is (as seems almost certain) in government, to replace Keir Starmer with Angela Rayner as PM.
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
I'd say most of us benefit to some degree that people (some!) get benefits. I don't think it would be very nice living in a place where the elderly that need benefits (like Council tax reduction etc) didn't get them or that people couldn't work because they don't get £ to help pay for nursery school etc. (It's a shame that nursery schools have become essential but that's the way things have become and we're not ever going back to the way things were).
