Luis Rubiales: Prosecutors seek 2.5-year jail term over World Cup kiss

[Count Steer]

It is complete and utter nonsense - whilst it is not behaviour of the modern era, it makes a mockery of some manslaughter and rape charges of a few months longer than that.
I realise it is a different legal system - but the world has gone mad.

Different legal system but prosecutors do like their moment in the sun - it's a bit like theatre - get your name at the top of the bill etc.

The coercion part of the charge is the important bit IMO and that doesn't warrant jail time, just the sack.

The whole righteous indignation bit is rather diluted by the money-grubbing.

Generally though, in the grand scheme of things, it's all a bit 'small earthquake in Chile, nobody hurt'. One things for sure, blokes aren't going to be grabbing women players and snogging them in any sports from now on. So that's probably a plus. (Although they'd be wise to duck if any women try to plonk a smackeroo on them too....then change their minds about what actually happened. Face masks for male managers/trainerd etc may become fashionable ).

[mangocrazy]

See why that may not be politically correct, they've just won a major trophy, he's excited, she's excited, it's a slightly foolish thing to do, but FFS jail time! Cone on!
Using that logic my old granny should've been in prison 50 times over for corrupting a youth every time I left her house

I'm not saying jail time is appropriate, I think it's completely disproportionate. Jenni made it clear that the kiss absolutely wasn't consensual but Rubiales refused to apologise, which led to his eventual forced resignation. I'd say that was punishment enough. Jail time is bonkers.

[weeksy]

Of course it wasn't consensual, it was sour of the moment, therefore by definition cannot be pre planned.

But that's semantics and terminology.

I don't think he should've been sacked personally, "oi, don't be fucking daft" was as far as this should ever have gone.

[Count Steer]

Of course it wasn't consensual, it was sour of the moment, therefore by definition cannot be pre planned.

But that's semantics and terminology.

I don't think he should've been sacked personally, "oi, don't be fucking daft" was as far as this should ever have gone.

....Until he and others started to lean on her, that's possibly the sacking/resignation thing, but we don't know how heavy the leaning was. If it was 'your international career is finished if you keep this up' it's open and shut to me. If it was, 'oh come on, don't detract from the win that all the others were part of with this side-show' then that's probably good advice twisted into 'coercion'.

Meanwhile I expect a cluster of 'kiss survivors' charities to get started up.

[mangocrazy]

I'd still like to hear the female perspective on this. Every comment on this thread so far has been from the male perspective.

[G.P]

It is complete and utter nonsense - whilst it is not behaviour of the modern era, it makes a mockery of some manslaughter and rape charges of a few months longer than that.
I realise it is a different legal system - but the world has gone mad.

If we all had a look at our 14 -18 years old selves , we probably have all done thing that would entitle us to a place on the sex offender register. And completely unwittingly !

Was fingering illegal?

[Yambo]

I'd still like to hear the female perspective on this. Every comment on this thread so far has been from the male perspective.

And I'd like to see your video that shows things that I didn't see in the one I posted.

I can give you my partner M's perspective. She simply thinks that Jenni Hermoso has got it in for Rubiales and if it wasn't this incident, it sure as shit would have been something else.

[mangocrazy]

I'd still like to hear the female perspective on this. Every comment on this thread so far has been from the male perspective.

And I'd like to see your video that shows things that I didn't see in the one I posted.

I can give you my partner M's perspective. She simply thinks that Jenni Hermoso has got it in for Rubiales and if it wasn't this incident, it sure as shit would have been something else.

I'm at a loss on this one. What did I say happened that you didn't see on the video? I'm watching the same video as you, the official feed. It may well be that Jenni had it in for Rubiales, but he gave her all the ammunition she needed. Above all else, it was a spectacularly dumb thing to do.

[Yambo]

I'd still like to hear the female perspective on this. Every comment on this thread so far has been from the male perspective.

And I'd like to see your video that shows things that I didn't see in the one I posted.

I can give you my partner M's perspective. She simply thinks that Jenni Hermoso has got it in for Rubiales and if it wasn't this incident, it sure as shit would have been something else.

I'm at a loss on this one. What did I say happened that you didn't see on the video? I'm watching the same video as you, the official feed. It may well be that Jenni had it in for Rubiales, but he gave her all the ammunition she needed. Above all else, it was a spectacularly dumb thing to do.

LOL!

. . . he snogged her forcibly on the lips, completely against her will. She was trying to break away and he wasn't letting her. As much as anything else, it was a demonstration of power - 'I can do this and you can't stop me'.

I guess we have a different definition to snog/snogging. As for trying to break away, she had at least one arm around him (looks like both to me) and gave him a little pat on the side with, it appears, both hands before and after the 'snog'. If that was trying to break away then I'm a fuckin' Dutchman. It certainly didn't seem to be a demonstration of power but it certainly looked like a spur of the moment expression of joy.

I'd certainly like that video clip in my defense it it was me in court. Although a dozen people who see things like you do would not be a good jury I guess. But to be fair, I've watched it again and I still can't see any effortfrom her to push him away. 'Completely against her will'? You've only got her word for that and actions speak a whole lot louder than words.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'm not saying jail time is appropriate, I think it's completely disproportionate. Jenni made it clear that the kiss absolutely wasn't consensual but Rubiales refused to apologise, which led to his eventual forced resignation.

Of course it wasn't consensual, it was sour of the moment, therefore by definition cannot be pre planned.

...

I don't think he should've been sacked personally, "oi, don't be fucking daft" was as far as this should ever have gone.

These two viewpoints highlight to me how attitudes have change (although mango is quite some years older than weeksy!), or perhaps how differently people can see the world.

Personally if I'd snogged/kissed a female co-worker* (particularly one nominally junior to me) and then found out it was against her will I'd be aghast. I certainly wouldn't dig my heels in and refuse to apologise, in fact I'd probably be horrified I'd done such a thing and be apologising straight away without needing prompting.

I'd definitely expect to be sacked and I'd probably consider myself lucky if it stopped there.

*actually, any co-worker

[crust]

They are asking for 2.5 years probably knowing he'll get less, time off for good behaviour etc, out in a lot less but message sent.

The woman didn't file the complaint:

Miguel Ángel Galán was watching with pride as Spain won the Women’s World Cup. His joy turned to disgust when Rubiales planted that forceful kiss on the team’s star striker, Jenni Hermoso.

Within minutes, Galán, the head of the National Training Center of Football Managers, said he was drafting an official complaint to the Spanish government’s High Council of Sport (CSD

“It was a sexist and intolerable act. A chauvinist act, by a president who is already plagued by corruption scandals and sexism,” he told CNN on Thursday. “Those are the two structural problems of the Federation in Spain: corruption and sexism.”

So there's background to this, he's got form which will have influenced the prosecutors decision.

From my perspective there's a big difference between an air kiss / a kiss on the cheek and hands behind the head on the lips kiss. Kissing on the lips is a very personal thing. He's her bosses boss, she's dependant on being 'picked' rather than guaranteed a game/wage, he has a power advantage over her which puts her in an awkward position.
I'm pretty sure that my company would react the same as Dazzle's - you're out, gross misconduct.

Do male managers kiss male players on the lips?

[Buckaroo]

One company I worked for fired the IT director for slapping his thighs whilst saying to a female team member "come and sit here" with the whole team present and observing. Suspended within a few hours, procedure applied, interviews held and decision: gross misconduct....bye bye. Done in a week or so.

[Mr Moofo]

It is complete and utter nonsense - whilst it is not behaviour of the modern era, it makes a mockery of some manslaughter and rape charges of a few months longer than that.
I realise it is a different legal system - but the world has gone mad.

If we all had a look at our 14 -18 years old selves , we probably have all done thing that would entitle us to a place on the sex offender register. And completely unwittingly !

Was fingering illegal?

Under 16, yes

[mangocrazy]

And I'd like to see your video that shows things that I didn't see in the one I posted.

I can give you my partner M's perspective. She simply thinks that Jenni Hermoso has got it in for Rubiales and if it wasn't this incident, it sure as shit would have been something else.

I'm at a loss on this one. What did I say happened that you didn't see on the video? I'm watching the same video as you, the official feed. It may well be that Jenni had it in for Rubiales, but he gave her all the ammunition she needed. Above all else, it was a spectacularly dumb thing to do.

LOL!

. . . he snogged her forcibly on the lips, completely against her will. She was trying to break away and he wasn't letting her. As much as anything else, it was a demonstration of power - 'I can do this and you can't stop me'.

I guess we have a different definition to snog/snogging. As for trying to break away, she had at least one arm around him (looks like both to me) and gave him a little pat on the side with, it appears, both hands before and after the 'snog'. If that was trying to break away then I'm a fuckin' Dutchman. It certainly didn't seem to be a demonstration of power but it certainly looked like a spur of the moment expression of joy.

I'd certainly like that video clip in my defense it it was me in court. Although a dozen people who see things like you do would not be a good jury I guess. But to be fair, I've watched it again and I still can't see any effortfrom her to push him away. 'Completely against her will'? You've only got her word for that and actions speak a whole lot louder than words.

See crust's comment. That encapsulates it perfectly.

[Yambo]

See crust's comment. That encapsulates it perfectly.

Yep, Crust's comment is fine and I don't really give a shit about the indiscretion, he was way out of order and really should have known better. I note that the player didn't make the complaint, I note that he has form but you shouldn't get done just because you have form. But I don't know about any of his previous and had never heard of either participant prior to the hoo-hah.

My only real interest is that you and presumably others appear to have seen her trying to break free in the video clip I posted. I'm well aware that different eye witnesses can see different things, especially if they are in different locations but we are watching the same video and I can't see what you see. My eyes are pretty good so it must be something else.

So, just to humour me, tell me the point in the video (how many seconds in for example) where the woman makes an uniquivocal attempt to break free. There's a good lad.

[Dodgy69]

He's obviously a twat with a big ego. I'd ask the girl what punishment she'd like to see. Didn't affect anyone else.

[Taipan]

See crust's comment. That encapsulates it perfectly.

Yep, Crust's comment is fine and I don't really give a shit about the indiscretion, he was way out of order and really should have known better. I note that the player didn't make the complaint, I note that he has form but you shouldn't get done just because you have form. But I don't know about any of his previous and had never heard of either participant prior to the hoo-hah.

My only real interest is that you and presumably others appear to have seen her trying to break free in the video clip I posted. I'm well aware that different eye witnesses can see different things, especially if they are in different locations but we are watching the same video and I can't see what you see. My eyes are pretty good so it must be something else.

So, just to humour me, tell me the point in the video (how many seconds in for example) where the woman makes an uniquivocal attempt to break free. There's a good lad.

I cant see her trying to break away either? 'I know how my wife would have reacted to an unwanted kiss and that certainly wasn't it.

[mangocrazy]

I've watched it over and over and to me she basically was unsure how to react. Rubiales grabbed her and picked her up and her right leg flicked back at the knee. This meant that even if she wanted to pull away she didn't have the leverage to do so. Rubiales basically made sure she wasn't able to avoid the kiss on the lips. Now I can't be certain that she was trying to pull away, but she certainly wasn't stood on both feet at the time of the kiss so I'd say it's moot.

[mboy]

See why that may not be politically correct, they've just won a major trophy, he's excited, she's excited, it's a slightly foolish thing to do, but FFS jail time! Cone on!
Using that logic my old granny should've been in prison 50 times over for corrupting a youth every time I left her house

He’s an idiot who got carried away in the moment. It happens to many people. Had he been self aware enough to realise this and apologise, he might have a sliver of moral ground left to stand on, and possibly a job… Doubling down on his position of it being consensual is stupid quite frankly, but then he’s obviously got quite a fragile ego…

BUT… Jail time…? I have several mates, most of whom are happily married now, who we would laugh about being an absolute liability when drunk on a night out (but at the same time be quite concerned for any potential victims!) who have done things much worse than Rubiales’ kiss to unassuming ladies in bars and nightclubs, night out after night out, year after year, and the absolute worst they’ve ever experienced was a slap… I’m not saying this is right, absolutely it is not, and I’ve had to apologise on behalf of a drunken friend (or make myself scarce) more times than I’d care to remember because of said actions, but not one of them ever received anything worse than a slap off the victim or any repurcussions at all… I am certainly not defending or excusing their previous actions, far from it… But how can society judge something worthy of jail time just because of the high profile individuals involved, where I have known many genuine rape cases get ignored or thrown out of court based upon a lack of evidence? I’d wager that having lost his job because of his error in judgement, Rubiales isn’t likely to repeat the offence and more than likely it has served as a significant deterrent already to any others who might have got “caught up in the moment” and acted similarly, so further prosecution for what was ultimately a poor error of judgement, just seems vindictive.

FWIW @mangocrazy and @Yorick , my GF spent many years living in Spain too and she’s been quite shocked at the magnitude of the whole thing. Whilst she absolutely doesn’t defend Rubiales’ actions as he had no right to do what he did (and that he was more stupid to double down on the “consent” side of things rather than just apologise and admit fault), she said she’s seen far worse most weekends that she lived out there, men being introduced to women they previously might not have known through a mutual friend, or worse men greeting friends’ teenage kids even!!! Where does one draw the line…?

[mboy]

So there's background to this, he's got form which will have influenced the prosecutors decision.

Whilst it’s undeniable that he’s got form, how do we send out a globally united message about the issue of non consensual advances such as this, where Donald Trump got positively rewarded for his “grab em by the pussy” remarks and his popularity has again increased in the US for the upcoming 2024 election not in spite of his Stormy Daniels court case, but actually because of it with many voters believe he is being unfairly treated?!?!

I am not defending anyones actions here… I am asking a genuine question… Because we can’t continue to send out incredibly mixed messages, and get any kind of consistent results when it comes to consent and respect towards women that they deserve in cases like these!