Where is the UK going?

[Cousin Jack]

This thread is about UK Governments of ALL persuasion. It is not about ‘Party’ politics. All Parties have tried to manage stuff, all have failed. This is about the mess we are in now, and what we could/should/you would do about it.

Once upon a time the UK was the economic powerhouse of the world. We built an infrastructure to last, roads, railways, sewers, public buildings. Wonderful stuff, but arguably only the rich really benefited, your average miner/shipyard worker/railroad man was being exploited to make his boss even richer. And if he lost his job or fell sick he was shafted.

Then stuff changed. Unemployment benefits, NHS, Council houses, etc etc. All good stuff. Much of it long overdue.

Then stuff changed again. Lots of extra benefits, Child Benefit, Income Support, PIP, etc, but now the industrial base that supported everything has gone. Advances in medical science means the NHS can, and does, preserve life and prolong life. But that costs money. Benefits are now linked to wages and prices (eg the triple lock), yet many pressure groups insist that benefits must increase still more.

Add it all together and it is all starting to fall apart. Roads, particularly minor roads, are rapidly decaying back into the rutted tracks that existed back in the 16th century. The NHS swallows more and more money, medical science adds more treatments, but waiting lists are growing rapidly, so the treatment is there, but you can’t access it. The Armed Services are shrinking fast, the Police Service is a bad joke, the Courts are backed up, etc etc. The problems are multifaceted and getting worse.

Some people rely, wholly or partly, on benefits rather than work. Or to put it another way, they refuse to spend only what they earn, and expect the state (ie other people) to fund their lifestyle. Assorted governments have encouraged and enshrined this, and it would be political suicide to suggest that it be dismantled. Some stuff, like Child Poverty, are actually defined in a way that they can never be eradicated.

Assorted governments have stepped away from any taxation scenarios that are based on use of resources (eg the ‘poll tax’). Instead it is all about taxing the ‘rich’. Unfortunately the ‘rich’, individuals or companies are able and willing to up-sticks and relocate to somewhere that is less greedy to pinch their money. So that pot is limited, squeeze too hard and the goose will stop laying golden eggs and fcuk off to Monaco or the Virgin Islands. Or Paris, or Amsterdam or New York.

Some other countries are lucky with massive natural resources, eg Saudi Arabia. Some others like Norway have carefully used money from North Sea oil and gas to create a Sovereign Wealth Fund that will keep giving when the oil runs out. We squandered that money instead, and we also sold off the family silver in the form of the nationalized industry infrastructure and Council housing stock; and are left with nothing to show for it. We even flogged off a huge chunk of our gold reserves at fire sale prices. God and the then-Chancellor, Gordon Brown, know why.

So where do we go next? Downhill all the way to a 3rd world country? Or will a saviour arise and create a new political party with the will to impose necessary change? Or will some new resource discovery or technical innovation save our bacon?

What say the RTTL massive?

[Rockburner]

Take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

[wheelnut]

Add to all that falling birth rates, less taxpayers and spiralling social care costs for the elderly and mental health.

[irie]

...
So where do we go next?
...

More of the same, it's the new European mindset (but not uniquely European).

Interesting article (probably behind a paywall):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... inflation/

Britain has been hit with an alarming rise in young people shunning employment, amid warnings that worklessness is becoming embedded in the economy.

The scale of inactivity among under-25s was laid bare in new figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), which revealed that nearly three million are neither employed nor looking for a job.

This represented a jump of 248,000 compared to last year, taking the total to its highest since ONS records began in 1992.

Economists have warned that a mental health crisis has fuelled the surge in inactivity among young people, many of whom also suffered from the disruption caused by Covid.

Britain is not working, quite literally. Nationally, 9.25 million people of working age are now neither employed nor looking for a job, 700,000 more than before the pandemic began.

Edit: insert picture

Screenshot_20240319_172521_Chrome.jpg (186.53 KiB) Viewed 939 times

[Yorick]

Move to a tropical island and laugh it off

[Pirahna]

The place is driven by greed.

Poverty stats are due out this week, they don't make good reading apparently. I see ministers dodging uncomfortable questions on Thursday.

[mangocrazy]

I'm not going to try and explain why I believe these things are so, and are contributing/have contributed to the deep malaise we find ourself in, but will just state what I think are the drivers behind our problems.

1. Hangover from Empire. We still believe we punch above our weight in world affairs. We don't. This is also known as British (and particularly English) exceptionalism.

2. Antiquated FPTP voting system, which encourages tribalism and gives one party complete control of affairs on a minor percentage of the vote. This leads to an antagonistic style of politics, which only favours those in power.

3. The famed British class system, which again fosters 'divide and rule' politics and more antagonism.

4. Most recently, our exit from the EU. Being part of the EU masked structural faults in the UK economy, which have now been exposed. We have also cut ourselves off from our largest and closest trading partner. See also British Exceptionalism.

5. The City of London having a disproportionate effect on the balance of the economy. We convinced ourselves that Finance could fill the hole left by the death of UK manufacturing and that buying cheap goods from China was to our long term benefit. It didn't and it wasn't.

6. Major multinational corporations being able to effectively set their own (ridiculously low) tax rates and drive zero hours contracts, to the impoverishment of the Exchequer, the general population and greatly reduced tax returns.

There are many more reasons, but I'll leave those to others.

[Cousin Jack]

Take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

May be the only answer, but ......

None of us has a spaceship

and

It may eradicate the problem, but it won't be comfortable.

[Mr Moofo]

1. Hangover from Empire. We still believe we punch above our weight in world affairs. We don't. This is also known as British (and particularly English) exceptionalism.

It's definitely and "English" thing and you notice it far more when living outside of the UK. Since the end of WW2, we have struggled with the identity since then. "We" still have positive role to play in the world. Despite our imperistic past, we were generally seen as "fairer" and others, and playing with a straight bat.
It's not all bad

2.
Antiquated FPTP voting system, which encourages tribalism and gives one party complete control of affairs on a minor percentage of the vote. This leads to an antagonistic style of politics, which only favours those in power.

Yeah but - FPTP or an essentially two party system? Part of the issue is that the conservatives have about 40,000 members - and are running the country!
Proportional representation is a system that could work well if every on negotiates and compromises - but it rarely woks well because of the small extremist parties that get a look in.
Because of PR it took the Belgians 18 months to get a viable government, The Germans are in a little bit of a clusterfuck because of the unholy alliances they have, and Israeli government ultra right wing places are to pacify two members who keep Bibi from losing power and being prosecuted for corruption

3. The famed British class system, which again fosters 'divide and rule' politics and more antagonism.

Yes, and public school education / Oxbridge/ Old School Tie. The USA , mind have the same issues, with ruling families in the political arena. It's just not seen as a class system - but it is

4. Most recently, our exit from the EU. Being part of the EU masked structural faults in the UK economy, which have now been exposed. We have also cut ourselves off from our largest and closest trading partner. See also British Exceptionalism.

It will be interesting to see if our faults , or the various major disagreements going on within the EU at the moment, fuck up who's economy first. Germany can no longer afford to bankroll the poorer states in the way it did. It is becoming a lot less affluent that it was. France is now taking leadership - and there is a truly dysfunctional economy and work ethic.

5. The City of London having a disproportionate effect on the balance of the economy. We convinced ourselves that Finance could fill the hole left by the death of UK manufacturing and that buying cheap goods from China was to our long term benefit. It didn't and it wasn't.

Thank you Thatcher - by all means scale up the finance side - but don't destroy manufacturing. She did to reduce the influence of the unions.
Ultimately that has made us a much less attractive proposition to outside investment

6.
Major multinational corporations being able to effectively set their own (ridiculously low) tax rates and drive zero hours contracts, to the impoverishment of the Exchequer, the general population and greatly reduced tax returns.

Agreed - but the ruling classes / 40k Conservatives who run the country see that as a way of attracting business


Others things to throw in the mix:-
1) We have a lazy, over entitled sector of the population who would rather claim maximum benefits than do something positive
2) Our education system, that used to be world leading, is down dropping down the league like a stone
3) Bankrupting youth by encouraging them to do worthless degrees
4) A health service that treats its customers with contempt and expects us to change to help it
5) Dreadful parenting and approach to responsibility
6) None of this matters as SEA is the polar opposite to all of this, add into that India, and the West is getting left behind
7) Unless Trump and Putin, with the help of Xi , cause WW3

[Dodgy69]

It's already gone down the pan far too far...A population that as outgrown a sustainable balance. for our size. No deterrents on crime. Private utilities putting profits first. Governments off loading responsibilities to private business, council's next. A massive lack of patriotism at the top. Corruption and greed is the political way.

Life in the bubble is best.

[wheelnut]

I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never.

John Adams

[KungFooBob]

And I don't worry about nothin' no
'Cause worrying's a waste of my time

[Cousin Jack]

And I don't worry about nothin' no
'Cause worrying's a waste of my time

Yes, and at my age I don't have time to waste. It's all going to ratshit, but probably won't affect me too much. I feel sorry for kids though.

[KungFooBob]

Kids, fuck'em.

(Not in a yew tree way).

[Ditchfinder]

We're just waiting for the boomers to stop leeching off the rest of society, hopefully people will be able to afford homes after they have gone

[MyLittleStudPony]

There is a train that comes from Namibia and Malawi. There is a train that comes from Zambia and Zimbabwe. There is a train that comes from Angola and Mozambique, from Lesotho, from Botswana, from Swaziland, from all the hinterlands of Southern and Central Africa.

This train carries young and old African men who are conscripted to come and work on contract in the gold and mineral mines of Johannesburg and it's surrounding metropolis.

Sixteen hours or more a day for almost no pay, deep, deep, deep down in the belly of the earth.

When they are digging and drilling that shiny mighty evasive stone or when hen they dish that mish mesh mush food onto their iron plates with the iron shank, or when they sit in their stinking, funky, filthy flea-ridden barracks and hostels they think about the loved ones they may never see again.

Because they might have already been forcibly removed from where they last left them or wantonly murdered in the dead of night by roving, marauding gangs of no particular origin.

We are told they think about their lands and their herds that were taken away from them with the gun, and the bomb, and the teargas, the gatling and the cannon.

[Mr. Dazzle]

1) We have a lazy, over entitled sector of the population who would rather claim maximum benefits than do something positive

Yeah, but my plan for compulsory televised death matches for the over 60s still hasn't gained traction

[KungFooBob]

1) We have a lazy, over entitled sector of the population who would rather claim maximum benefits than do something positive

Yeah, but my plan for compulsory televised death matches for the over 60s still hasn't gained traction

When the crystal in their hand starts flashing red put them on the carousel!

[mangocrazy]

I have a suspicion that not all of you chaps are taking this entirely seriously...

[irie]

I have a suspicion that not all of you chaps are taking this entirely seriously...