Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Mr. Dazzle]

.
I would imagine the problem with an ambulance is the uncertainty of when you need it. Plus the absolutely piss poor planning of the NHS

There's a surprising amount of planning required for ambulance despatch. It's not just what's nearest, also needs to account for imminent breaks, etc.

And that's assuming they're not stacked up at A&E.

Longest drive I've heard of is 45 minutes / 25+ miles, cross-country.

If you were gonna trial it, surely you'd do it in London or Birmingham etc. Somewhere which had lots and lots of small stop-start journeys which are ideal for an EV, not out in the sticks. Double whammy cause the fuel savings somewhere like that would be way more significant.

[Horse]

.
I would imagine the problem with an ambulance is the uncertainty of when you need it. Plus the absolutely piss poor planning of the NHS

There's a surprising amount of planning required for ambulance despatch. It's not just what's nearest, also needs to account for imminent breaks, etc.

And that's assuming they're not stacked up at A&E.

Longest drive I've heard of is 45 minutes / 25+ miles, cross-country.

If you were gonna trial it, surely you'd do it in London or Birmingham etc. Somewhere which had lots and lots of small stop-start journeys which are ideal for an EV, not out in the sticks. Double whammy cause the fuel savings somewhere like that would be way more significant.

Same article [DM]:

Richard Webber, a paramedic and spokesman for the College of Paramedics, told the Telegraph: 'I think they really need to produce the evidence that this is safe before this is rolled out beyond urban areas.

The inference being that the current trials are in urban areas?

Perhaps install induction charge points at A&E?

[Slenver]

If you were gonna trial it, surely you'd do it in London or Birmingham etc. Somewhere which had lots and lots of small stop-start journeys which are ideal for an EV, not out in the sticks. Double whammy cause the fuel savings somewhere like that would be way more significant.

That's what they've been doing though, I believe. Trialled initially up north and now in a few other places.

I just spoke to a mate of mine who's just left the ambulances in London. He says they worked really well as most shifts cover around 30 miles. They also had some fast-response cars (Ford Mach-E's) which were very popular.

He said the main issue is actually that the ambos are run 24 hours... daytime 12-hr shift hands straight over to 12-hr night shift, so there's not much time for charging. Said it worked well enough in London though with chargers on station.

TBH, the articles out today all read as the same alarmist bollocks. They're trialled them in cities where they worked, but the range isn't enough currently for them to be used in the countryside. So they won't be, I assume. The DM/Express/Telegraph have made this into headlines that say everyone's going to die, but what they really mean is 'successful trials probably won't be extended outside of cities'. That's my reading of it, anyway, and it's all pretty standard for the right-wing gutter press. Not seen any articles in 'real' newspapers so far.

[Horse]

Worth noting that ambulances are taken out of service for regular deep cleaning. If that's once a day, then it might be sufficient in London.

[Taipan]

NHS dropping leccy ambulances

Have you got a link? All I can find are several sites saying the NHS are expanding their trials to more areas.

No link, I just heard them discussing it on "This Morning".

[Saga Lout]

... That's my reading of it, anyway, and it's all pretty standard for the right-wing gutter press. Not seen any articles in 'real' newspapers so far.

That's they way, don't like the message, shoot the messenger. Would "'real' newspapers" include The Guardian?

[Horse]

Right on cue, Emergency Services Times email news today.

https://emergencyservicestimes.com/2024 ... months-in/

London’s first electric ambulance – what we’ve learned three months in

Having received its first electric ambulance late last year and sent it out on its first shift on New Year’s Eve, the capital’s first electric ambulance is both a novelty and a trailblazer, but does it do the job? We caught up with two of its London Ambulance Service crew to find out more.

John and Os are experienced clinicians with 18 years experience between them. They proudly showed us around the Ford electric ambulance as it took a well earned rest at the headquarters of the London Ambulance Service near Waterloo Station. To the untrained eye, this looks like a normal boxy ambulance, but on closer inspection the blue wiggle along the sides gives away its electric origins.

It’s a real privilege for the Emergency Services Times editorial team to get up close and personal with the ambulance and see what all the fuss is about. Shaving off 1.5 tonnes of weight to get this to be more efficient for the electric battery to power it to run around London’s streets was no mean feat. LAS Fleet Manager, Rob MacIntosh told me last year that they had questioned the value of every single item of kit on the diesel fuelled ambulance to see where they could shave off weight.

This brand new ambulance doesn’t have a traditional tail lift. John shows us the ease of moving the Stryker stretcher from inside the ambulance to the street; there’s no physical stress on him as the stretcher moves elegantly on to the pavement.

“Crews definitely find this system much better; they were quite anxious when we lost the tail lift, but crews prefer it now.”

Hopping up inside the ambulance – my first time – I am surprised at the blue cloudy sky on the ceiling and a picture of a field of poppies with, unexpectedly, a fox gazing at me. It’s all part of a cunning design to calm the environment, and is helped by thoughtful lighting and a nondescript box with items designed to help patients with autism adjust to the space.

As John calmly explains all the functions of the ambulance’s interior to us, it quickly becomes clear that everything has its place and even without labels, the crew know where to find each piece of kit. They are primed for everything – from the maternity kit to burns and infections, the crew supplement the super heavy kit bag with oxygen and dressings so they are ready for anything.

We meet Gino, who’s an LAS manager and goes out on calls to support paramedics. He shows us the Lifepak made by Physio Control; it is a rather expensive machine that provides lots of important vitals like heart rates oxygen levels and includes a defibrillator.

Because it’s an electric ambulance, we learn that the cabinetry is designed to be lightweight and there are less windows, just two in in the rear. Os says that it’s super quiet in the back. When he’s in there with a patient and John is driving, he can’t hear anything except the occasional creak of a cabinet as the kit inside moves about. With air con and heating better than ever, he also told us that they don’t need to open the windows and the well known super loud siren noise doesn’t penetrate the interior.

Giving the exterior the once over, I find the charging point at the front where Os opens the flap and says it’s easy to charge the ambulance and there is a fetching blue grill, another nod to its electric origins. I wonder if the charging only takes place once a 12 hour shift is over? Rob MacIntosh tells me that the plan is for every make ready station – where the ambulance is cleaned and kitted out for a new shift – to have an electric charger so that it’s just another process for the ambulance to go through before it’s on the road again.

I get to sit inside the cab – the seats looking smart with LAS regalia – and it feels high up with a small steering wheel that isn’t special to an electric ambulance. The only giveaway is the battery visual on the dashboard telling me how much charge is left. It’s as mundane as the charging information on my phone.

We spend an hour with the crew and are left with the impression that this ambulance feels modern, clean and fit to go around London clocking up a massive mileage without polluting the city and contributing to climate change. For now it’s the star of the show but will shortly be joined by a second ambulance before a further two appear later this year. It’s a slow process but it’s important to iron out any wrinkles and provide the data back to NHS England who will be watching this trial with great interest. The team there know about the emissions and will want to see great reductions over time but that’s not going to come soon.

The big question is can it complete a shift? And the answer to that so far is yes, it can. It also ticks the box when it comes to meeting standards for the design and equipping of ambulances – the all important CEN EN 1789. It’s a huge step forward and we will be looking out for more the wiggly blue line ambulances as they provide a service to Londoners in their hour of need and help save our planet along the way.

[Slenver]

That's they way, don't like the message, shoot the messenger. Would "'real' newspapers" include The Guardian?

Where have I shot the messenger for delivering a message? The message was 'they're trialling electric ambulances' and the articles the DM/Telegraph published were titled 'Fears for patients' and opens with 'Desperate patients could now be forced to wait even longer for emergency medical care after the NHS launched new electric ambulances.'

It's called having an agenda. Much of the right-wing press has an anti-environmental agenda, and so their 'job' is to spin press releases like this into fear-mongering propaganda.

There's nothing new here, but don't complain to me just because I'm trying to add some objectivity into the discussion. I prefer facts to hysteria, that's all.

[Horse]

... That's my reading of it, anyway, and it's all pretty standard for the right-wing gutter press. Not seen any articles in 'real' newspapers so far.

That's they way, don't like the message, shoot the messenger. Would "'real' newspapers" include The Guardian?

Have you looked for any of the news reports?

Heck of a coincidence that both online newspaper reports I found use the same terminology.

Plus they're scare mongering. It's a trial - the whole point being to find out what works and what doesn't.

Like the hefty price tag per vehicle. There is also a huge cost to the NHS - the vehicles cost £150,000 each

Notice it doesn't tell you what an ICE vehicle costs.

Here you are:
https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/2023 ... e-capital/

The fully equipped ambulances cost £156,000

[Slenver]

Like the hefty price tag per vehicle. There is also a huge cost to the NHS - the vehicles cost £150,000 each

Notice it doesn't tell you what an ICE vehicle costs.

Here you are:
https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/2023 ... e-capital/

The fully equipped ambulances cost £156,000

Exactly. I read an NHS press release earlier saying that they're using them because of the huge amount of money they'll save. Presumably they cost a fraction of the cost to run.

But if you cherry-pick a large number out of context, you can make it look terrible to those that don't understand the comparison.

[ZRX61]

https://climatechangedispatch.com/to-th ... a-is-dead/

[Mussels]

Right on cue, Emergency Services Times email news today.

https://emergencyservicestimes.com/2024 ... months-in/

London’s first electric ambulance – what we’ve learned three months in

Having received its first electric ambulance late last year and sent it out on its first shift on New Year’s Eve, the capital’s first electric ambulance is both a novelty and a trailblazer, but does it do the job? We caught up with two of its London Ambulance Service crew to find out more.

John and Os are experienced clinicians with 18 years experience between them. They proudly showed us around the Ford electric ambulance as it took a well earned rest at the headquarters of the London Ambulance Service near Waterloo Station. To the untrained eye, this looks like a normal boxy ambulance, but on closer inspection the blue wiggle along the sides gives away its electric origins.

It’s a real privilege for the Emergency Services Times editorial team to get up close and personal with the ambulance and see what all the fuss is about. Shaving off 1.5 tonnes of weight to get this to be more efficient for the electric battery to power it to run around London’s streets was no mean feat. LAS Fleet Manager, Rob MacIntosh told me last year that they had questioned the value of every single item of kit on the diesel fuelled ambulance to see where they could shave off weight.

This brand new ambulance doesn’t have a traditional tail lift. John shows us the ease of moving the Stryker stretcher from inside the ambulance to the street; there’s no physical stress on him as the stretcher moves elegantly on to the pavement.

“Crews definitely find this system much better; they were quite anxious when we lost the tail lift, but crews prefer it now.”

Hopping up inside the ambulance – my first time – I am surprised at the blue cloudy sky on the ceiling and a picture of a field of poppies with, unexpectedly, a fox gazing at me. It’s all part of a cunning design to calm the environment, and is helped by thoughtful lighting and a nondescript box with items designed to help patients with autism adjust to the space.

As John calmly explains all the functions of the ambulance’s interior to us, it quickly becomes clear that everything has its place and even without labels, the crew know where to find each piece of kit. They are primed for everything – from the maternity kit to burns and infections, the crew supplement the super heavy kit bag with oxygen and dressings so they are ready for anything.

We meet Gino, who’s an LAS manager and goes out on calls to support paramedics. He shows us the Lifepak made by Physio Control; it is a rather expensive machine that provides lots of important vitals like heart rates oxygen levels and includes a defibrillator.

Because it’s an electric ambulance, we learn that the cabinetry is designed to be lightweight and there are less windows, just two in in the rear. Os says that it’s super quiet in the back. When he’s in there with a patient and John is driving, he can’t hear anything except the occasional creak of a cabinet as the kit inside moves about. With air con and heating better than ever, he also told us that they don’t need to open the windows and the well known super loud siren noise doesn’t penetrate the interior.

Giving the exterior the once over, I find the charging point at the front where Os opens the flap and says it’s easy to charge the ambulance and there is a fetching blue grill, another nod to its electric origins. I wonder if the charging only takes place once a 12 hour shift is over? Rob MacIntosh tells me that the plan is for every make ready station – where the ambulance is cleaned and kitted out for a new shift – to have an electric charger so that it’s just another process for the ambulance to go through before it’s on the road again.

I get to sit inside the cab – the seats looking smart with LAS regalia – and it feels high up with a small steering wheel that isn’t special to an electric ambulance. The only giveaway is the battery visual on the dashboard telling me how much charge is left. It’s as mundane as the charging information on my phone.

We spend an hour with the crew and are left with the impression that this ambulance feels modern, clean and fit to go around London clocking up a massive mileage without polluting the city and contributing to climate change. For now it’s the star of the show but will shortly be joined by a second ambulance before a further two appear later this year. It’s a slow process but it’s important to iron out any wrinkles and provide the data back to NHS England who will be watching this trial with great interest. The team there know about the emissions and will want to see great reductions over time but that’s not going to come soon.

The big question is can it complete a shift? And the answer to that so far is yes, it can. It also ticks the box when it comes to meeting standards for the design and equipping of ambulances – the all important CEN EN 1789. It’s a huge step forward and we will be looking out for more the wiggly blue line ambulances as they provide a service to Londoners in their hour of need and help save our planet along the way.

A few iffy bits in that for me. If they were able to shave off 1.5 tons of unecessary equipment why haven't they done that to diesel ones already, or is it the case that the electric ones can't do all jobs?
I remember when the electric trains removed opening windows and said the new aircon was better, it is until the situation goes outside the design brief. If the train is crowded or the weather hot you want to rip a hole in the side to let some fresh air in, the efficiency reason for removing windows makes me think the aircon and ventilation is weak.

[Horse]

John shows us the ease of moving the Stryker stretcher from inside the ambulance to the street; there’s no physical stress on him as the stretcher moves elegantly on to the pavement.

“Crews definitely find this system much better; they were quite anxious when we lost the tail lift, but crews prefer it now.”

A few iffy bits in that for me. If they were able to shave off 1.5 tons of unecessary equipment why haven't they done that to diesel ones already, or is it the case that the electric ones can't do all jobs?

No idea. But the price I quoted for the LAS's new ICE vehicles also includes the Stryker system (re price, I was told that a standard trolley 'stretcher' is about £10k). FWIW an ambo fleet manager I know (not LAS) has been pushing for them for years. The hydraulic lifts some have fitted hang a huge weight on the rear of the truck. Ramps are ergonomic awful.

As to why other changes haven't been reflected back, no idea. Ask next year and perhaps they will.

'Plastic' bodywork is used on fire appliances and some roads maintenance vehicles. Perhaps no-one has actually bothered for ambos, instead "we've always done it this way ... "

[Yambo]

The big question is can it complete a shift? And the answer to that so far is yes, it can.

The ambulance doesn't do shifts does it. It doesn't knock off like the crew do after 8 or 9 hours, it needs to be ready for the next crew.

The article is very light on info about down time for charging.

[cheb]

For me the fun will start when having tried these in cities it's decided to roll them out over the whole area, including the remoter bits. I suspect the deciders will learn they've made an error of judgement but it might take them sometime.

War story: Years ago when the Scottish Ambulance Service reorganised their dispatching department they frequently argued with crews who refused to do their suggested tasks. Yes the patient is only 35 miles away but of that about 20 miles is water and the ferry has already gone for the day.

[Mussels]

The big question is can it complete a shift? And the answer to that so far is yes, it can.

The ambulance doesn't do shifts does it. It doesn't knock off like the crew do after 8 or 9 hours, it needs to be ready for the next crew.

The article is very light on info about down time for charging.

I doubt there needs to be a particularly long power cut to cripple an electric ambulance service.
It's possible that frequent partial charging will work well for the battery life and they could get a lot of value out of it but this doesn't seem like much of a trial to me, they have invested a huge amount of money into this and made big changes so I expect the trial brief says 'make it look good'. It reminds me a bit of the Horizon system that wasn't allowed to fail as it would embarass politicians too much.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I doubt there needs to be a particularly long power cut to cripple an electric ambulance service.

Red Herring IMO.

There doesn't have to be a particularly long power cut to cripple any kind of ambulance service. Even something as simple as getting fuel from the pumps requires electricity. The dispatch systems won't work without power. You can't charge all your machines which go "bing!".

Not to mention the fact Hospitals use an awful lot of electricity themselves. Which is why we have UPSs and a generally very reliable electricity grid.

[Horse]

they have invested a huge amount of money into this

How much?

[MrLongbeard]

Given the delays in handover times when dropping off at A&E the solution is simple, just jack the ambos in to a fast charger when they rock up at the hospital.

[Horse]

AAMOI


“We’ve had electric patient transport vehicles and support vehicles"

LAS are working with hospitals in the capital, including Guys and St Thomas’ Hospital and Kings College Hospital, to provide high-powered electric vehicle charging ports so crews can charge their vehicles at hospitals. LAS also now has 56 charging stations at ambulance stations for their electric vehicles.

The electric ambulances are the latest addition to the largest emergency fleet of fully-electric vehicles in the country, with a total of 42 fully-electric fast-response cars and three electric motorcycles.

So they do have some idea of what is feasible.