Abrasion resistance

[Hot_Air]

Posted on Motorbikerider.com today, which could interest some: https://motorbikewriter.com/multiple-ma ... or-riders/

"When we first hit the road the downward force is very high as we are falling from some height to hit the surface either in a low or high side crash. Of course a high-side crash will have more downward momentum than a low side. This results in large initial tearing of fibres from the surface of the outer material that leads to premature failure.

Once our downward momentum is stabilised and turned into forward momentum only the weight of our body is applying force to cause abrasion. When we have two layers the first one is damaged in the initial hit with the road and then the second layer when exposed is pristine and can withstand a longer abrasion time. It may also have sample of the previous layer present at the early stages of the second layer abrasion further helping abrasion resistance.

Now all of this does not work if the outer material is weak or really stretchy. In both of these cases the outer layer bursts open on impact and the second layer is loaded up and stressed as well. This is why we see a number of the protective layer lined hoodies and ladies leggings performing poorly in MotoCAP. The outer layer bursts open on impact loading the protective layer up to forces it was not designed to be exposed to.

Abrasion damage is affected most by force and area. A small force on a large area will have low abrasion, the same force on a smaller area will have increased abrasion. So considering a glove our body puts a fixed amount of force down the arm on to the ground. If we have the palm of our hand in contact with the ground then the area involved in abrasion is much larger than if we have only the side of the hand and little finger even though the force remains the same.

This is why a little finger in a glove should have a double layer of leather to better protect it than the palm where the force is spread over a larger area.

[weeksy]

What's your thoughts?

[Yorick]

What's your thoughts?

Beer. That's very kind of you Guv

[weeksy]

What's your thoughts?

Beer. That's very kind of you Guv

Not yours, his.

I get irritated on forums when people just post a load of regurgitated rubbish without giving any opinion on it. I'm all for discussion, but copy and pasting a load of stuff isn't discussion

[Hot_Air]

First I'm going for a beer to get the old gray matter working.

[Horse]

A small force on a large area will have low abrasion, the same force on a smaller area will have increased abrasion

As the age-old expression has it: scrub a lot of leather a little bit, rather than a little bit a lot.

I've heard the idea of a sacrificial layer, although that suggestion was for a thin layer of man-made material over a more substantial leather garment. Also, this where armour can smooth out pointy bits (elbows and knees), so reducing wear rates.

[Hot_Air]

I've heard the idea of a sacrificial layer ... this where armour can smooth out pointy bits (elbows and knees), so reducing wear rates.

Also, Dr Hurren's article suggests to me that it's worthwhile having those plastic or metal sliders on top of the armour for shoulders, elbows and knees.

[Hot_Air]

Beer.

I had a beer and fell asleep. I dreamt that I wasn’t able to ride my bike because of being incarcerated at home, so I had to occupy myself by looking over my gloves to see if they had a double layer of leather on the pinkie fingers. Can you imagine being incarcerated like that? What a nightmare!

[MrLongbeard]

Also, Dr Hurren's article suggests to me that it's worthwhile having those plastic or metal sliders on top of the armour for shoulders, elbows and knees.

Not very good at reducing transmitted forces though.
And potentially may lead to a longer slide increasing your risk of impacting something not very forgiving

[Hot_Air]

I thought the original purpose of those sliders was to help promote sliding instead of tumbling because tumbling increases the chance of injury. However, I realise this idea comes from the track, where nobody has to worry about hitting a lamppost!

Not very good at reducing transmitted forces though.

Which is why I was careful to write "on top of the armour" and made no mention of reducing transmitted forces.

[MrLongbeard]

I thought the original purpose of those sliders was to help promote sliding instead of tumbling because tumbling increases the chance of injury. However, I realise this idea comes from the track, where nobody has to worry about hitting a lamppost!

That's the badger, similar to airbags, everyone scrambling to get the latest new widget sold to the public without maybe thinking as hard as they could on the big picture

[Horse]

I've heard the idea of a sacrificial layer ... this where armour can smooth out pointy bits (elbows and knees), so reducing wear rates.

Also, Dr Hurren's article suggests to me that it's worthwhile having those plastic or metal sliders on top of the armour for shoulders, elbows and knees.

As always, decide what riding or crashing you're going to do, then dress accordingly

I doubt that, for most road riders, the addition of a few shiny bits will make of a difference to crash outcomes. Few riders will slide far enough for it to make a difference. As with the marginal gains idea, adding the shiny bits means that the rider already has a reasonable set of gear, they might gain a little bit in a few situations.

[Horse]

PS in the early days of armour, there was a - luckily brief - trend for fitting hard, thin, plastic 'cups' in the knees (where now there wouldbearmour). No impact absorbtion (although there might be the sliding benefit). Unfortunately, they would sometimes twist and inflict nasty cuts.

[Hot_Air]

That's the badger, similar to airbags, everyone scrambling to get the latest new widget sold to the public without maybe thinking as hard as they could on the big picture

I think one key question is: can the latest widget do any harm?

Could those sliders do any harm? They may help in a road accident because tumbling is best avoided. Judging by Dr Hurren's article, those sliders will help prevent my leathers from failing through 'impact abrasion' too. Though the sliders are probably a marginal gain as Horse suggested. They may help you slide into something hard, but I'd guess their overall risk-benefit is perhaps a very minimal gain.

Can airbags do any harm? Risk compensation probably comes into play, but that's an issue for protective clothing generally. There's also uncertainty about neck protection. On balance, I expect airbags have more benefits than downsides, and they may well help in low-speed crashes. (I doubt anything would protect me from hitting a hard object at high speed.) However, not all airbags are created equal (as per the other thread); it takes detective work to find out the differences between them, and read between the lines of the marketing hype.

Can beer do any harm? It' full of vitamins, high in fibre, low on sugar and good for your hair. And I can't think of anything negative about beer. On balance, I'd say beer is more than a marginal gain.

[The Spin Doctor]

I think one key question is: can the latest widget do any harm?

Of course it can! Or is that supposed to be rhetorical?

Could those sliders do any harm? They may help in a road accident because tumbling is best avoided. Judging by Dr Hurren's article, those sliders will help prevent my leathers from failing through 'impact abrasion' too. Though the sliders are probably a marginal gain as Horse suggested. They may help you slide into something hard, but I'd guess their overall risk-benefit is perhaps a very minimal gain.

If they provide a hard edge against which the leather can fold up that could cause accelerated wear.

If you've ever examined a GOOD set of race leathers - like my old Manx leathers - they slide quite nicely without metal inserts.

Can airbags do any harm? Risk compensation probably comes into play, but that's an issue for protective clothing generally. There's also uncertainty about neck protection. On balance, I expect airbags have more benefits than downsides, and they may well help in low-speed crashes. (I doubt anything would protect me from hitting a hard object at high speed.) However, not all airbags are created equal (as per the other thread); it takes detective work to find out the differences between them, and read between the lines of the marketing hype.

More mass to wear (and to decelerate) less flexibility on the bike... the side on impact videos we've seen ignore the potentially fatal head impact, and we don't have any proper numbers - just WHAT can they do? As I've said numerous times in these debates, the fatal injury in a modern crash (as opposed to a slide) is likely to be:

either ruptured internal organs and blood vessels, caused by your insides continuing to move as the rib cage stops - it's hard to see how a couple of centimetres of inflated vest can significantly change that

or fracture pelvis or femur rupturing the femoral artery - in which case you'll bleed out in seconds.

Can beer do any harm? It' full of vitamins, high in fibre, low on sugar and good for your hair. And I can't think of anything negative about beer. On balance, I'd say beer is more than a marginal gain.

Diabetes, cardio-vascular disease, liver disease...

As you may know I worked with Chris Hurren in 2018 and 2019 in New Zealand on the Shiny Side Up tour, and was able to listen to his presentations and have other conversations over a beer or three... he knows his stuff and he's committed to a) good science and b) improving bike kit.

[Hot_Air]

Diabetes, cardio-vascular disease, liver disease...

Now you've cheered me up

I need a beer

[Horse]

I've heard the idea of a sacrificial layer ... this where armour can smooth out pointy bits (elbows and knees), so reducing wear rates.

Also, Dr Hurren's article suggests to me that it's worthwhile having those plastic or metal sliders on top of the armour for shoulders, elbows and knees.

Do the new Australian clothing tests cover these, ie test abrasion resistance of the suit materials and overlaid metal separately?

Also, have they tested any suits (Klim?) which utilise 'Superfabric' TM (which has small ceramic (?) plates on the surface)?

[Hot_Air]

Out of Klim's range, MotoCAP has so far tested the Badlands Pro pants and jacket: https://motocap.com.au/product/badlands-pro

Like almost all textile jackets tested by MotoCAP, the Badlands Pro doesn't score brilliantly for abrasion resistance. Though it excellent seam burst strength and impact protection: https://motocap.com.au/sites/default/fi ... Jacket.pdf

It's a low score for abrasion considering the big deal Klim makes of using 'Karbonite Ripstop by Superfabric'. Perhaps there really is no substitute yet for leather.

[Horse]

Like almost all textile jackets tested by MotoCAP, the Badlands Pro doesn't score brilliantly for abrasion resistance. Though it excellent seam burst strength and impact protection:

It's a low score for abrasion considering the big deal Klim makes of using 'Karbonite Ripstop by Superfabric'.

Well, if it did well in burst tests, perhaps it lives up to the 'ripstop' claim.

For abrasion resistance, how does it compare to other fabrics, both in absolute terms and comparatively with fabrics of a similar thickness or rigidity? It might be that it offers comparable abrasion resistance but is more comfortable to wear?

[Hot_Air]

I don't know how the Badlands Pro compares to other textile jackets, but I believe it's AA-rated. Comparably priced Rukka clothing doesn't score any better for abrasion resistance, despite the Armacor marketing hype. Out of what's currently available, I think only Scott Leathers and Hideout have the most protective textiles ... unless you want to wear a hoodie!

The Furygan Brad X hoodie and the Hideout System Concept jacket are AAA-rated. Also, Scott Leathers' New Road and Road Airflow jackets achieved the original CE Level 2 PPE certification.

Before the pandemic struck, I heard that Hideout was due to launch even more abrasion-resistant textiles, made from 'Titanite' combined with ballistic nylon. I've no idea what Titanite is, but rumour has it that Hideout's newest textiles didn't wear through after over 100 seconds on the Cambridge test machine!