Vote!

[irie]

You do know who Reform UK are?

Blokes who don't even know how to clean their own specs?

The overwhelming majority of voters want to bring their families up peacefully with a good educational system, an efficient readily available health system, safe streets, a fair and readily available justice system, free from the attempted social engineering of minorities pushing their woke agendas, and so on. It's probably fair to say that someone not cleaning their specs is fairly low on their list of priorities.

[Count Steer]

You do know who Reform UK are?

Blokes who don't even know how to clean their own specs?

The overwhelming majority of voters want to bring their families up peacefully with a good educational system, an efficient readily available health system, safe streets, a fair and readily available justice system, free from the attempted social engineering of minorities pushing their woke agendas, and so on. It's probably fair to say that someone not cleaning their specs is fairly low on their list of priorities.

If they think Reform UK will deliver it then they probably can't clean their own specs either.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I don't think there is a single mainstream party who would not claim that ^^^ as a set of goals.

In other news, puppies are cute.

[cheb]

I don't think there is a single mainstream party who would not claim that ^^^ as a set of goals.

In other news, puppies are cute.

What, even bully xxxl ones?

[irie]

Blokes who don't even know how to clean their own specs?

The overwhelming majority of voters want to bring their families up peacefully with a good educational system, an efficient readily available health system, safe streets, a fair and readily available justice system, free from the attempted social engineering of minorities pushing their woke agendas, and so on. It's probably fair to say that someone not cleaning their specs is fairly low on their list of priorities.

If they think Reform UK will deliver it then they probably can't clean their own specs either.

I'd guess that most who voted Reform UK would do so to try to break the Westminster hegemony which they're pissed off with, and not to elect them as the governing party. In other words, to try to restructure Westminster politics.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I don't think there is a single mainstream party who would not claim that ^^^ as a set of goals.

In other news, puppies are cute.

What, even bully xxxl ones?

Only in Scotland.

[Count Steer]

The overwhelming majority of voters want to bring their families up peacefully with a good educational system, an efficient readily available health system, safe streets, a fair and readily available justice system, free from the attempted social engineering of minorities pushing their woke agendas, and so on. It's probably fair to say that someone not cleaning their specs is fairly low on their list of priorities.

If they think Reform UK will deliver it then they probably can't clean their own specs either.

I'd guess that most who voted Reform UK would do so to try to break the Westminster hegemony which they're pissed off with, and not to elect them as the governing party. In other words, to try to restructure Westminster politics.

I'd guess that most who vote for Reform UK might think that voting for Rupert Bear would change the political system too. It is a problem though when a certain sector of voters decide to 'stick it to the man' and then they, more than anyone, suffer the consequences.

Protest votes worked out really well last time eh?

[irie]

If they think Reform UK will deliver it then they probably can't clean their own specs either.

I'd guess that most who voted Reform UK would do so to try to break the Westminster hegemony which they're pissed off with, and not to elect them as the governing party. In other words, to try to restructure Westminster politics.

I'd guess that most who vote for Reform UK might think that voting for Rupert Bear would change the political system too. It is a problem though when a certain sector of voters decide to 'stick it to the man' and then they, more than anyone, suffer the consequences.

Protest votes worked out really well last time eh?

And the alternative is exactly what?

More of the same of course.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Count Steer]

I'd guess that most who voted Reform UK would do so to try to break the Westminster hegemony which they're pissed off with, and not to elect them as the governing party. In other words, to try to restructure Westminster politics.

I'd guess that most who vote for Reform UK might think that voting for Rupert Bear would change the political system too. It is a problem though when a certain sector of voters decide to 'stick it to the man' and then they, more than anyone, suffer the consequences.

Protest votes worked out really well last time eh?

And the alternative is exactly what?

More of the same of course.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whoever will promise, and deliver, PR and end FPTP maybe? It's a swamp but Reform UK ain't going to drain it, they're just queuing up to get their noses in the trough, but they can split votes and hand it to more of the same.

Maybe I'll start the Guy Fawkes party....

[cheb]

I don't think there is a single mainstream party who would not claim that ^^^ as a set of goals.

In other news, puppies are cute.

What, even bully xxxl ones?

Only in Scotland.

Not for much longer. Yousaf is going to ban them, now that the Bastard English have. Amusingly he complained that the Bastard English didn't consult him first. How dare they force the Scottish parliament to think for themselves. FREEEEEEDOM.

[irie]

I'd guess that most who vote for Reform UK might think that voting for Rupert Bear would change the political system too. It is a problem though when a certain sector of voters decide to 'stick it to the man' and then they, more than anyone, suffer the consequences.

Protest votes worked out really well last time eh?

And the alternative is exactly what?

More of the same of course.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whoever will promise, and deliver, PR and end FPTP maybe? It's a swamp but Reform UK ain't going to drain it, they're just queuing up to get their noses in the trough, but they can split votes and hand it to more of the same.

Maybe I'll start the Guy Fawkes party....

So who do you think will/can "drain the swamp"?

[mangocrazy]

And the alternative is exactly what?

More of the same of course.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whoever will promise, and deliver, PR and end FPTP maybe? It's a swamp but Reform UK ain't going to drain it, they're just queuing up to get their noses in the trough, but they can split votes and hand it to more of the same.

Maybe I'll start the Guy Fawkes party....

So who do you think will/can "drain the swamp"?

None of the above. The best we can hope for is to get rid of FPTP.

[Greenman]

I don't think there is a single mainstream party who would not claim that ^^^ as a set of goals.

In other news, puppies are cute.

But none of us can name a single party that has delivered those promises!

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's only been 5 centuries, give em a chance!

[Cousin Jack]

None of the above. The best we can hope for is to get rid of FPTP.

How will getting rid of FPTP help? In most countries that use other systems Governments end up as coalitions in which small, often extreme, tails wag the dog. And Governent lifetimes are measured in months rather than years.

I am no fan of UK politicians, but I know what I don't want, extremists and even more short term thinking.

[mangocrazy]

None of the above. The best we can hope for is to get rid of FPTP.

How will getting rid of FPTP help? In most countries that use other systems Governments end up as coalitions in which small, often extreme, tails wag the dog. And Governent lifetimes are measured in months rather than years.

I am no fan of UK politicians, but I know what I don't want, extremists and even more short term thinking.

Well for a start representation in Parliament would more closely match actual votes cast for the respective parties - y'know, democracy I believe it's called. And I would venture that far from allowing small extremist parties to unduly influence policy, PR would limit the capability of zealots to have undue influence. I'd say that coalitions do tend to moderate policy extremes.

However I don't believe we'll see PR as a UK voting system any time soon. The Tories absolutely don't want it - they do far too well out of FPTP. And Labour seem inexplicably wedded to FPTP, even though it keeps them out of power for decades.

[irie]

And the alternative is exactly what?

More of the same of course.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whoever will promise, and deliver, PR and end FPTP maybe? It's a swamp but Reform UK ain't going to drain it, they're just queuing up to get their noses in the trough, but they can split votes and hand it to more of the same.

Maybe I'll start the Guy Fawkes party....

So who do you think will/can "drain the swamp"?

Has the cat got your tongue, eh @Count Steer?

[JackyJoll]

There’s a bit of proportional representation in the Mickey Mouse Scottish “Parliament” elections.

It has put the Greens in charge of policy, despite not being voted for.

[Cousin Jack]

It has given the ultra Zionist factions in Israel a great deal of power too.

[Count Steer]

None of the above. The best we can hope for is to get rid of FPTP.

How will getting rid of FPTP help? In most countries that use other systems Governments end up as coalitions in which small, often extreme, tails wag the dog. And Governent lifetimes are measured in months rather than years.

I am no fan of UK politicians, but I know what I don't want, extremists and even more short term thinking.

Well for a start representation in Parliament would more closely match actual votes cast for the respective parties - y'know, democracy I believe it's called. And I would venture that far from allowing small extremist parties to unduly influence policy, PR would limit the capability of zealots to have undue influence. I'd say that coalitions do tend to moderate policy extremes.

However I don't believe we'll see PR as a UK voting system any time soon. The Tories absolutely don't want it - they do far too well out of FPTP. And Labour seem inexplicably wedded to FPTP, even though it keeps them out of power for decades.

I've been doing a bit of research on PR - what the various forms of it are, who uses them and contemplating, roughly, how successful they are. One thing that dropped out was Blair took complete control of government in 2005 with 25% of the vote so that goes some way to explaining why the 2 main parties like FPTP. You can run a country how you like when 75% of the people didn't vote for you.

When politics is binary you get short term economic flip-flopping between political ideologies when long-term stability is needed to develop big stuff/ideas. Less of a problem when both parties tend towards the centre but given CJs comment about PR, the unelected tail has been wagging the Tory dog ever since Farage came on the scene and Labour seem to be dealing with their Unions 'tail'.

The PR used in Germany seems to work but is a bit less democratic perhaps than other forms.

I don't like the preferred candidate lists approach as I like the idea that constituents vote for a representative of the constituency rather than the national party decides (I don't like the way they parachute their 'chosen ones' into constituencies either).

So yes, some form of PR such that the majority of voters every election don't end up feeling disenfranchised and new voices are heard in parliament - at a volume proportional to their balloted support.