Israel's war with Hamas (and other Iran proxies)

[Greenman]

Is Israel keeping the Israeli hostages in Gaza?

How do you know for fact that they are even being kept hostage by anyone?

How do any of us know for fact that any of this is true, it's just our own speculation, and my speculation is that Israel are just trying to gain the rest of the land they took from the Palestinians originally. I can't see that Hamas would of been stupid enough to poke a sleeping monster and that there is more into this than what the western media want us to believe.

Do you hold a “view” on the Moon landings?

No.

I also do not believe the earth is flat, i'm a sceptic not an idiot.

[irie]

How do you know for fact that they are even being kept hostage by anyone?

Since none of the 'hostages' have been seen or heard since the 'alleged' hostage taking these alternatives spring to mind:

1. They might all be dead rather than having been taken hostage.

2. They might all be holed up together somewhere in Israel in a remote location unable to communicate with anyone outside that location.

3. They might all be sitting at relatives homes under strict instructions not to venture outside or speak to anyone.

4. There is a conspiracy encompassing both Israeli and Hamas/ Palestinian media.

5. They might be being held captive by Hamas.

Your call.

Edit: item 1. clarified

[Mr Moofo]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any - as retribution would come their way in leaps and bounds. If they are "just dead, they are collateral damage of the Israeli response. And the myth that Hamas are freedom fighters protecting the Palestinian homelands, rather than rapists, torturers and sadists, can go on

[Cousin Jack]

I doubt they are all dead, hostages are the ultimate bargaining chip. Hamas will want at least some alive to prove they are still in play.

OTOH I doubt they are all alive either.

[Count Steer]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

[irie]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

I think you might have forgotten about these hostages.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-12-24/

[Mr Moofo]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

Yes, that is my point. Where are the rest of the hostages? - Israel freed 100s, Hamas freed 10s - and maybe they were the only ones that could free.
That is why I assume the rest are dead, or Hamas will not return them alive, because of what has been done to them.

[Count Steer]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

Yes, that is my point. Where are the rest of the hostages? - Israel freed 100s, Hamas freed 10s - and maybe they were the only ones that could free.
That is why I assume the rest are dead, or Hamas will not return them alive, because of what has been done to them.

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

[Count Steer]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

I think you might have forgotten about these hostages.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-12-24/

Ah yes, sorry I had forgotten about the ones that were found dead in the tunnels that were being bombed. What is probably true was they were, as Reuters reported, 'killed in captivity'. You, and I, don't know how they died.

'Post mortems are pending'.

[irie]

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

Yes, that is my point. Where are the rest of the hostages? - Israel freed 100s, Hamas freed 10s - and maybe they were the only ones that could free.
That is why I assume the rest are dead, or Hamas will not return them alive, because of what has been done to them.

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

Imagining what might happen is in the long run certain to be far less reliable than making probabilistic guesses (predictions) on the basis of known (or assumed to be known) facts.

[demographic]

^
I'll go for No 1
I think so much sexual violence was committed post Hamas taking hostages that they could not free any...

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

Which shows neatly just how brutal the Isralie soldiers have been to the Palestinians.
Oh its also a war crime to intentionally kill civillians, as defined here...

"A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings including genocide or ethnic cleansing, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, the conscription of children in the military and flouting the legal distinctions of proportionality and military necessity.[1]

I am in no way shape or form defending Hamas, however it seems to me that Israel is intentionally committing the crimes of genocide, ethnic cleansing, have been taking hostages for years, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, pillaging, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, oh and the widespread use of white phosphorus during daytime when its not really needed to provide light.

Not only are they doing it, they are filming themselves doing much of it and putting it online.
I'll ratch out footage as I come across it over the next few days.

[Mr Moofo]

Err. Apart from the ones they did free. The only dead ones we do know about actually died waving white flags and were shot by....?

Yes, that is my point. Where are the rest of the hostages? - Israel freed 100s, Hamas freed 10s - and maybe they were the only ones that could free.
That is why I assume the rest are dead, or Hamas will not return them alive, because of what has been done to them.

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

On both sides ...

[Count Steer]

Yes, that is my point. Where are the rest of the hostages? - Israel freed 100s, Hamas freed 10s - and maybe they were the only ones that could free.
That is why I assume the rest are dead, or Hamas will not return them alive, because of what has been done to them.

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

On both sides ...

Well, if we're dealing in such things...here's a few.

The Israeli government is under great internal pressure from voters to get the hostages freed, which will probably require a ceasefire, again. Netanyahu is under pressure within his coalition, from the expansionist right, not to do that.

He needs the coalition to hold in order to stay in power.

Hamas need the hostages in order to bargain. It's not in their interests to mistreat or kill them. Better if they can release people who say they've been treated decently. It would be better for the opposition to be able to claim that Hamas have abused/killed them in order to keep the outrage going in support of the military campaign.

Ergo, the hostages are in more danger from their own forces than their captors.

Meanwhile, in other news, it appears that the Hamas actions weren't rubber stamped by the Hamas political leaders in Qatar, nor supported by Iran...which is why Hezbollah have kept things lower key than they might. It is beginning to appear (or be presented ) more and more that more than a few, while paying lip service, think the local leadership have screwed things up big time.

[asmethurst99]

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

On both sides ...

Well, if we're dealing in such things...here's a few.

The Israeli government is under great internal pressure from voters to get the hostages freed, which will probably require a ceasefire, again. Netanyahu is under pressure within his coalition, from the expansionist right, not to do that.

He needs the coalition to hold in order to stay in power.

Hamas need the hostages in order to bargain. It's not in their interests to mistreat or kill them. Better if they can release people who say they've been treated decently. It would be better for the opposition to be able to claim that Hamas have abused/killed them in order to keep the outrage going in support of the military campaign.

Ergo, the hostages are in more danger from their own forces than their captors.

Meanwhile, in other news, it appears that the Hamas actions weren't rubber stamped by the Hamas political leaders in Qatar, nor supported by Iran...which is why Hezbollah have kept things lower key than they might. It is beginning to appear (or be presented ) more and more that more than a few, while paying lip service, think the local leadership have screwed things up big time.

The briefing room Podcast had a good breakdown of Hamas and its leadership inside and outside Gaza - quite complicated and must make any kind of dialogue (at all) very difficult notwithstanding locally interested parties
Idk

[Mr Moofo]

Yes well, assumptions as we know, aren't facts. It doesn't help when people imagine what's happening.

On both sides ...

Well, if we're dealing in such things...here's a few.

The Israeli government is under great internal pressure from voters to get the hostages freed, which will probably require a ceasefire, again. Netanyahu is under pressure within his coalition, from the expansionist right, not to do that.

He needs the coalition to hold in order to stay in power.

Hamas need the hostages in order to bargain. It's not in their interests to mistreat or kill them. Better if they can release people who say they've been treated decently. It would be better for the opposition to be able to claim that Hamas have abused/killed them in order to keep the outrage going in support of the military campaign.

Ergo, the hostages are in more danger from their own forces than their captors.

Meanwhile, in other news, it appears that the Hamas actions weren't rubber stamped by the Hamas political leaders in Qatar, nor supported by Iran...which is why Hezbollah have kept things lower key than they might. It is beginning to appear (or be presented ) more and more that more than a few, while paying lip service, think the local leadership have screwed things up big time.

Based on which info sources
The Israelis are not trustworthy
Hamas have no scruples what so ever

All of this is being stirred up by Putin to deflect support for Ukraine
China is loving it as Russia is prostituting itself to them - welcome to world meltdown when China and USA kick off

[Cousin Jack]

......welcome to world meltdown when China and USA kick off

Coming to a country called Taiwan soon.

[irie]

......welcome to world meltdown when China and USA kick off

Coming to a country called Taiwan soon.

China 'uniting' with Taiwan would starve the West of semi-conductors, especially the most economically critical ones, and drive Western economies over a cliff. Which is precisely why such a move by China would be vigorously resisted by (particularly) the USA.

This link helps to explain the economics behind the West's reliance on Taiwan (and in particular the Taiwanese company TSMC).

https://www.cfr.org/blog/will-chinas-re ... revent-war

China might consider a war of expansion as a digression from its own demographic, political, and economic problems but (imo) a continued stand-off is far more likely. An attack on Taiwan could conceivably cause the demise of the CCP because an American embargo on the import of Chinese goods would cause a huge drop in the income of Chinese workers.

[ZRX61]

There's some Israeli spokesman (Mark Regev)who pops up on the news over here & claims to be an Aussie born Israeli. He was the Israeli ambassador to the UK until 2020. However, he sounds like a South African? I mean his accent.. however, he's rather full of himself about promoting apartheid.

[irie]

There's some Israeli spokesman (Mark Regev)who pops up on the news over here & claims to be an Aussie born Israeli. He was the Israeli ambassador to the UK until 2020. However, he sounds like a South African? I mean his accent.. however, he's rather full of himself about promoting apartheid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Regev

[demographic]

There's that "Right to Return" where even Jewish people who were born and raised 8n another country get the automatic right to "Return" to Israel (think theyre stretching the term Return a LOT) but they don't allow that for the Palestinians.

Its a proper aparteid state, moving into ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Wasn't there something recently where 800 genocide scholars signed a petition saying that what Israel were doing( for some time now) was genocide?