In todays news...

[demographic]

Just to show than Netenyahu (sp?) doesn't speak for all the Jewish people and that some of them find Zionism abhorrent theres this chap.

[JackyJoll]

[quote =mangocrazy]To just start this whole debate at 7th October is to miss the point entirely.

To go back in time is easier to concoct an answer round, but it can’t be done.

Events have to be viewed from a historical perspective otherwise they cannot be understood. The events of Oct 7th didn't happen out of nowhere, they were the result of decades of oppression/aggression from Israel and more specifically Zionism.

Anyone who can make the past better than it was, please speak up now, you have a lot to offer.

Anyone who would do things right now, radically different from what Israel is doing, please explain your policy to me.

And everyone- please tell me your vision for the long term future of the region. If it’s the same as the Islamists’ fevered dream of killing all the Jews, don’t bother.

[Cousin Jack]

What would make sense is if it Israel stayed within Israel, the West Bank and Gazza could be united, and recognised as a country (Palestine), and both sides could chose non-extremist governments.

It won't happen of course, far too many religious zealots on both sides, and several foreign governments keen to have proxy wars.

[mangocrazy]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

[Cousin Jack]

That Balfour guy started it. That, and the UK drawing some lines on a map after WW1.

[JackyJoll]

That Balfour guy started it. That, and the UK drawing some lines on a map after WW1.

There were Zionists migrating to the area before Balfour’s time.

[JackyJoll]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

Understanding what you say is due to what, doesn’t take us forward, but time marches on and the future will happen.

What future do you want to see?

[JackyJoll]

What would make sense is if it Israel stayed within Israel, the West Bank and Gazza could be united, and recognised as a country (Palestine), and both sides could chose non-extremist governments.

It won't happen of course, far too many religious zealots on both sides, and several foreign governments keen to have proxy wars.

Your West Bank/Gaza country would be a shit country, grudgingly supported by cold charity from other Arab states and whatever other countries want to thumb their nose at America.

[mangocrazy]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

Understanding what you say is due to what, doesn’t take us forward, but time marches on and the future will happen.

What future do you want to see?

A two-state solution, with Palestine having its own clearly delineated territory (over which Israel has no control), and recognised by international law.

What future do you want to see?

[JackyJoll]

Your solution there is complicated by Gaza’s current government swearing to kill everyone in Israel, but I suppose the Palestinians could calm down sometime in the future.

Long term, I’d have more faith in a single state, with equal rights for all. I suppose that might be very long term, considering current mindsets.

[irie]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

That's a laughably one sided analysis of the crisis in the ME, but unfortunately a very fashionable one.

[irie]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

Understanding what you say is due to what, doesn’t take us forward, but time marches on and the future will happen.

What future do you want to see?

A two-state solution, with Palestine having its own clearly delineated territory (over which Israel has no control), and recognised by international law.

What future do you want to see?

Do you really believe that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and it's proxies, who have long asserted that Palestine must be re-established to its historical pre-Israel boundaries, would now change their positions and find a two-state solution acceptable?

[mangocrazy]

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you cannot understand that the current situation is due to historical choices and policies made and implemented by a Zionist Israeli state, then you have entirely failed to understand the nature of the problem.

That's a laughably one sided analysis of the crisis in the ME, but unfortunately a very fashionable one.

Once again you cannot suggest a solution, all you are able to do is snipe and sneer. It's your default position.

[mangocrazy]

Understanding what you say is due to what, doesn’t take us forward, but time marches on and the future will happen.

What future do you want to see?

A two-state solution, with Palestine having its own clearly delineated territory (over which Israel has no control), and recognised by international law.

What future do you want to see?

Do you really believe that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and it's proxies, who have long asserted that Palestine must be re-established to its historical pre-Israel boundaries, would now change their positions and find a two-state solution acceptable?

I'd say it's more likely than it was prior to October 7th. When faced with genocide on the scale Israel is threatening, I'd say a two-state solution could sound quite appealing.

What's your solution, then?

[irie]

A two-state solution, with Palestine having its own clearly delineated territory (over which Israel has no control), and recognised by international law.

What future do you want to see?

Do you really believe that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and it's proxies, who have long asserted that Palestine must be re-established to its historical pre-Israel boundaries, would now change their positions and find a two-state solution acceptable?

I'd say it's more likely than it was prior to October 7th. When faced with genocide on the scale Israel is threatening, I'd say a two-state solution could sound quite appealing.

What's your solution, then?

A two state solution sounds appealing, but as said above is currently not feasible.

Iran and its proxies are fighting to defeat Israel thereby ensuring that it ceases to exist. On the other hand, Israel is fighting to avoid defeat which would mean certain destruction of the state of Israel.

I'd say it's more likely than it was prior to October 7th.

I see no grounds for sharing your optimism. As things stand, it is a fight to the death between the two protagonists.

[mangocrazy]

I'd say it's more likely than it was prior to October 7th. When faced with genocide on the scale Israel is threatening, I'd say a two-state solution could sound quite appealing.

What's your solution, then?

A two state solution sounds appealing, but as said above is currently not feasible.

No. it's just that it doesn't appeal to you.

Iran and its proxies are fighting to defeat Israel thereby ensuring that it ceases to exist. On the other hand, Israel is fighting to avoid defeat which would mean certain destruction of the state of Israel.

Are we actually watching the same conflict? It's not even a war - a war needs two sides with some kind of military equivalence. The Palestinians have no army, no air force, no navy and have to take whatever Israel throws at them with no realistic ability to fight back. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. "Iran and its proxies" aren't actually lifting a finger in support of the Palestinians, the waging of war is totally one-sided. And poor defenceless Israel "is fighting to avoid defeat which would mean certain destruction of the state of Israel" - don't make me laugh. They are pursuing genocide.

I see no grounds for sharing your optimism. As things stand, it is a fight to the death between the two protagonists.

Who said I was optimistic? The only deaths are those of Palestinian men, women and children. There is no "fight to the death between the two protagonists", it's entirely one-sided slaughter.

And again I ask the question - what's your solution, then?

[Desmodromic]

We went to Israel a couple of years back, we are not religious and don't go to church or anything but wanted to see those places that you grew up as a child knowing about. Luckily we are in a position to be able to afford to. We did a weeks tour around many places including Jerusalem and Bethlehem. It was strange when the Israeli tour guide had to leave the tour bus as she wasn't allowed into the West Bank and her role was taken over by a Palestinian tour guide. They both had their point of view of the conflict, but both just wanted to be able to live in peace, be happy and provide for their families, along with most people.

A solution to the Middle East problems, or more specifically the Israel and Hamas conflict? Unfortunately I know the answer isn't an easy one. The best(?) minds for years, decades have tried to work this one out. I don't think a few members of a motorcycling forum will have much sway in it. Or even come up with an answer thats acceptable.

We have had world leaders of all sides proposing this that and the other. Putting forward ideas, peace talks and every other method we have of trying to get this dispute settled. All to no avail.

It will get sorted eventually one way or the other. The way its sorted is entirely up to the people who are doing the fighting. Personally I only see it going one way. Hamas will be destroyed. It will not totally be gone, there will always be someone left to take up their fight in other ways. But whatever they have done in Gaza will be destroyed, levelled, flattened and Israel will take over the security in Gaza as they have in the West Bank.
Israel now have the chance they have been waiting for, they can go into Gaza, get rid of Hamas, the tunnels, everything Hamas have built over the past few years. I think they are in it for he long term.

[JackyJoll]

The Palestinians have no army, no air force, no navy and have to take whatever Israel throws at them with no realistic ability to fight back.

If Hamas can’t and isn’t fighting anyone, who is shooting at the IDF and why are there hostages in Gaza?

And where did they get those hostages? I do hope it wasn’t through any sort of foul play!

You say “genocide” a lot, but it’s patently not genocide. There’s more to genocide than just a lot of deaths.

[mangocrazy]

The Palestinians have no army, no air force, no navy and have to take whatever Israel throws at them with no realistic ability to fight back.

If Hamas can’t and isn’t fighting anyone, who is shooting at the IDF and why are there hostages in Gaza?

And where did they get those hostages? I do hope it wasn’t through any sort of foul play!

You say “genocide” a lot, but it’s patently not genocide. There’s more to genocide than just a lot of deaths.

Hamas is fighting an invading army that has crushing superiority in every facet of its military capability. They are fighting back against invasion - in no way are they currently taking the fight to Israel - they're too busy fighting for their lives. Israel wants to crush Hamas and the Palestinian people and wipe Palestine clean of them. If that isn't genocide I don't know what is.

[Mussels]

The Palestinians have no army, no air force, no navy and have to take whatever Israel throws at them with no realistic ability to fight back.

If Hamas can’t and isn’t fighting anyone, who is shooting at the IDF and why are there hostages in Gaza?

And where did they get those hostages? I do hope it wasn’t through any sort of foul play!

You say “genocide” a lot, but it’s patently not genocide. There’s more to genocide than just a lot of deaths.

Hamas is fighting an invading army that has crushing superiority in every facet of its military capability. They are fighting back against invasion - in no way are they taking the fight to Israel. Israel wants to crush Hamas and the Palestinian people and wipe Palestine clean of them. If that isn't genocide I don't know what is.

That seems quite some twisted logic. Israel are going in heavy handed but at least at one point they were the ones fighting back against the Palestinian invasion, at what point did you start ignoring that to imply Israel is the aggressor?