Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

General chat topics, anything and everything you want or need to discuss
User avatar
Pirahna
Posts: 1863
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:31 pm
Has thanked: 1773 times
Been thanked: 1109 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Pirahna »

cheb wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:47 pm
Pirahna wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:35 pm Back to leccy cars, Tesla are having trouble with the Swedish trade unions which has resulted in postal workers not delivering to Tesla, the Danes are joining in with dock workers refusing to have anything to do with them. The postal workers action has just been upheld by a Swedish court.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sw ... 023-12-07/


This explains the situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/07/busi ... union.html
The second link is behind a spamwall. For me anyway.
Tesla Is Fighting With Sweden’s Unions. Here’s What to Know.
The action began with a mechanics walkout in October, but has spread to include blockades by other unions. Tesla has pushed back through the courts.
Weeks after mechanics working for Tesla in Sweden walked off their jobs in late October, members of other unions across the country and in Denmark and Norway have joined the mechanics in sympathy by refusing to provide services to Tesla to pressure the automaker to sign a collective agreement with its Swedish workers.

The strike in Sweden, by 120 mechanics represented by the trade union IF Metall, was the first labor action against Tesla, the U.S. maker of electric vehicles founded 20 years ago and run by Elon Musk. The strike has spread beyond Sweden after dockworkers in Denmark said they would stop unloading Tesla vehicles at ports around the country.

Tesla does not make cars in Sweden, and the country is a relatively small market for the automaker. Not all of the mechanics at its seven service centers are taking part in the strike. But the widening support from unions including dockworkers, electrical and postal workers has pressured the automaker to take legal action to compel delivery of license plates. Temporary rulings have been made in two court cases, but the final decisions are still pending.

Unions say Tesla is flouting Sweden’s tradition of collective agreements. About 90 percent of Swedish workers are covered by these agreements, which apply to nonunion employees and set work conditions across industries. They have a long history in Nordic countries and are widely seen as crucial to maintaining social cohesion and a high standard of living.

The strikers and the unions taking up their cause “are fighting an incredibly important battle right now,” Jan Villadsen, chairman of the 3F Transport union representing the Danish dockworkers, said in a statement. “Even if you are one of the richest in the world, you can’t just make your own rules,” he said, referring to Mr. Musk.

But Tesla’s Model Y is a hugely popular sport utility vehicle in Sweden, topping the list of electric cars sold this year. Some industry officials in Sweden are becoming worried that a protracted labor battle could harm business at repair shops forced to stop servicing Tesla vehicles.

What’s at stake for the union?
IF Metall wants Tesla to start talks about adopting a collective agreement. The pact would set the basis for wages and benefits for all, although only about 70 of Tesla’s 120 mechanics in Sweden belong to the union.

The union believes that most of its members at Tesla are staying home, but concedes that “some are regrettably at work despite the strike.”
At least 10 other unions have joined by refusing to clean Tesla’s facilities, service its battery chargers, or paint and repair its vehicles. All told, about 150 members of IF Metall and other unions are involved in the strike in some way, the union said.

Union leaders see the blockade against Tesla as one that defends the Swedish Model, a way of life that has defined the country’s economy for decades. At its heart is cooperation between employers and employees to ensure that both sides benefit equally from a company’s profit.

But organized labor is not so strong in emerging green industries, and union leaders in Sweden are concerned that if those jobs remain nonunion, they will have lower wages and fewer benefits.

How has Tesla reacted?
Tesla, which starting selling cars in Sweden in 2013, has not responded to repeated requests for comment. But Mr. Musk has more than once made clear how he feels about organized labor, most recently at the DealBook Summit in New York.

“I disagree with the idea of unions,” Mr. Musk said, then went on to accuse them of creating “a lords and peasants situation” within the work force and stirring discontent between managers and workers. “I think unions naturally try to create negativity within a company,” he said.

Our business reporters. Times journalists are not allowed to have any direct financial stake in companies they cover.

Tesla has insisted that it follows Swedish labor laws but has chosen not to sign a collective agreement. None of its service centers have been forced to close because of the strike.

When postal workers stopped delivering license plates to Tesla, the company filed suits against the government agency that produces the plates and PostNord, the postal company the government uses to deliver them. Union members at the postal company have been refusing to deliver Tesla’s mail. Tesla argued that the agency should provide the plates directly to the automaker and demanded that the postal company either deliver or surrender the plates it had.

So far, Tesla has not convinced the courts. In late November, a judge ruled that the agency must make the plates available to Tesla, but another court later overturned that ruling, leaving the company reliant on PostNord. In the other case, a judge said PostNord did not need to deliver license plates being held by the postal service’s workers, pending a final ruling.

How are workers in other countries getting involved?
Solidarity among unions in Nordic countries is strong, and IF Metall has been in talks with neighboring labor groups. One tactic is simply blocking new Tesla vehicles from entering the country: In Denmark, officials of the 3F Transport union, representing dockworkers and drivers, said they would stop unloading Tesla vehicles bound for Sweden that arrived at Danish ports. They join Swedish dockworkers who have refused to unload the vehicles since mid-November.

The automaker has tried to evade the dockworkers’ blockade by transporting cars into Sweden from neighboring countries, but once the Danish dockworkers join the strike, one easy point of entry — the bridge that connects Copenhagen with Malmo in Sweden — will be closed off. The Fellesforbundet confederation of unions in Norway said it would boycott the transport of cars to Sweden. The unions in both Denmark and Norway said the boycott would be aimed only at cars destined for Sweden.

Do people in Sweden support the strike?
Support has been split. Some view the strike as an important statement about their way of life, and others say the union has gone too far and is promoting an unwinnable, and to some unjust, fight.

The Model Y ranked as Sweden’s best-selling electric vehicle in November, reflecting continued demand despite the strike.

An official from an association that represents local car repair shops has also raised concerns that some of its members are being hit hard by the sympathy strikes, which prevent them from carrying out any repairs.

“We see that it is an unfortunate situation which, in the event of a protracted conflict, risks threatening Swedish jobs,” said Hanna Alsen, head of negotiations at the Motor Industry Employers’ Association.

How long can the strike last?
Strikes are rare in Sweden. Often the threat of a walkout is enough for negotiations to begin. IF Metall said it had tried for years to bring Tesla to the negotiating table.

The union has said it is prepared for a protracted fight but would end the action if Tesla agreed to discuss a collective agreement.

At the same time, Tesla remains the only major U.S. automaker without union representation. The company has remained resistant to unions even in European countries with strong traditions of organized labor, including Germany, where Tesla opened a factory in 2022.

Esben Pedersen, who helped bring Tesla to Europe, said the automaker might have painted itself into a corner in Sweden, adding that the strike is about a larger issue than just wages and benefits.

“It’s about a cultural clash between two distinct systems: the Scandinavian labor market model, which emphasizes collective negotiation, and the Silicon Valley ethos of agility in pivoting, coupled with Elon’s focus on vertical integration,” he said. “Even if he offers compensation that exceeds requirements, the strike would likely continue until Tesla agrees to a collective bargaining agreement.”

A correction was made on Dec. 7, 2023: An earlier version of this article misstated the name of a postal service sued by Tesla. It is PostNord, not PostNorden.
When we learn of a mistake, we acknowledge it with a correction. If you spot an error, please let us know at nytnews@nytimes.com.Learn more

Melissa Eddy is based in Berlin and reports on Germany’s politics, businesses and its economy. More about Melissa Eddy
cheb
Posts: 4703
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:51 am
Been thanked: 2501 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by cheb »

Thank you.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11216
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 5945 times
Been thanked: 4933 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Horse »

20231209_104710.jpg
20231209_104710.jpg (213.6 KiB) Viewed 442 times
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 13490
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2611 times
Been thanked: 6015 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Dammit, I've already bought my gift for the work secret santa.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11216
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 5945 times
Been thanked: 4933 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Horse »

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:50 am Dammit, I've already bought my gift for the work secret santa.
You could improvise with a cheap toy car (put T logos all over) and a party popper inside, then "Hey - guess what this is!" and pull the string.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Potter
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:32 pm
Has thanked: 2216 times
Been thanked: 4612 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Potter »

I've been looking at the latest EVs and there are some really nice ones about, the Volvo EX30 looks good.
I'm also noticing a lot more chargers about, I don't know if this is because I'm looking more or if more are being installed, but pretty much every car park I go onto now has EV points.

I think it's time for a test ride in a few to see.
User avatar
MrLongbeard
Posts: 4371
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:06 pm
Has thanked: 579 times
Been thanked: 2289 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by MrLongbeard »

Potter wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:18 pm I don't know if this is because I'm looking more or if more are being installed, but pretty much every car park I go onto now has EV points.
Aside from Tesla stations at M-Way services I've only ever seen one large installation, of the 12 points 1 was working.
User avatar
Potter
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:32 pm
Has thanked: 2216 times
Been thanked: 4612 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Potter »

MrLongbeard wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:37 pm
Potter wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:18 pm I don't know if this is because I'm looking more or if more are being installed, but pretty much every car park I go onto now has EV points.
Aside from Tesla stations at M-Way services I've only ever seen one large installation, of the 12 points 1 was working.
We've been getting out and about on day trips and sometimes we haven't been able to find a parking spot, the usual ones were all full and the only empty ones were all the EV charging points. It looks like up north the infrastructure is quicker than the people buying the cars.
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 13490
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2611 times
Been thanked: 6015 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

There are several large installations here in MK alone, on top of 1,2, 5 or even 20 points in pretty much every supermarket/B&Q/etc. car park. AFAIK though we're out outlier, there are more chargers per person here than anywhere outside central London.

There are 3 outside the CooP corner shop by my house, just a regular corner shop. That's not even the closest ones, there are two chargers 300-400m from here just on the street not associated with any businesses.

I can't actually find a central resource which tells you every charger nearby, they're all done 'by brand'. That certainly needs to change and AFIAK it is changing as a result of government policy.

One thing that does get my goat though, and I don't even need to charge a car!, is people parking (with EVs) in charging spaces and not plugging in. The spaces are free here in MK, which is why they do it, but if you're not going to charge you should get ticketed like an ICE car would IMO.
User avatar
Potter
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:32 pm
Has thanked: 2216 times
Been thanked: 4612 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Potter »

My only concern is getting low on charge and having to hunt around for a charging point, especially outside of any urban areas.
You can usually find a petrol station even in the arse end of nowhere, but not EV points just yet.

Plus the time it takes to charge, so if you're on the motorway then the points could get overwhelmed on busy holidays.
User avatar
ZRX61
Posts: 4854
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm
Location: Solar Blight Valley
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 1331 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by ZRX61 »

Potter wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:41 pm My only concern is getting low on charge and having to hunt around for a charging point, especially outside of any urban areas.
You can usually find a petrol station even in the arse end of nowhere, but not EV points just yet.

Plus the time it takes to charge, so if you're on the motorway then the points could get overwhelmed on busy holidays.
Biden stated the US was going to build thousands of charging points. Democrats controlled Congress at that time so $Billions in funding was approved.

Number build so far: 0
User avatar
Count Steer
Posts: 11415
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 6263 times
Been thanked: 4614 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Count Steer »

ZRX61 wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:04 pm
Potter wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:41 pm My only concern is getting low on charge and having to hunt around for a charging point, especially outside of any urban areas.
You can usually find a petrol station even in the arse end of nowhere, but not EV points just yet.

Plus the time it takes to charge, so if you're on the motorway then the points could get overwhelmed on busy holidays.
Biden stated the US was going to build thousands of charging points. Democrats controlled Congress at that time so $Billions in funding was approved.

Number build so far: 0
It was approved, how much has been spent for zero result?
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one
.
Voltaire
User avatar
ZRX61
Posts: 4854
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm
Location: Solar Blight Valley
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 1331 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by ZRX61 »

Count Steer wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:08 pm It was approved, how much has been spent for zero result?
I'd guess at least half of it
User avatar
Count Steer
Posts: 11415
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 6263 times
Been thanked: 4614 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Count Steer »

ZRX61 wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:24 pm
Count Steer wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:08 pm It was approved, how much has been spent for zero result?
I'd guess at least half of it
Guess? Do better.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one
.
Voltaire
User avatar
ZRX61
Posts: 4854
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm
Location: Solar Blight Valley
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 1331 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by ZRX61 »

Count Steer wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:32 pm I'd guess at least half of it
Guess? Do better.
[/quote]
ICBA :)
User avatar
Pirahna
Posts: 1863
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:31 pm
Has thanked: 1773 times
Been thanked: 1109 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Pirahna »

Count Steer wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:32 pm
ZRX61 wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:24 pm
Count Steer wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:08 pm It was approved, how much has been spent for zero result?
I'd guess at least half of it
Guess? Do better.
$2bn of the $7.5bn set aside.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/0 ... e%20change.
User avatar
ZRX61
Posts: 4854
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm
Location: Solar Blight Valley
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 1331 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by ZRX61 »

I couldn't tell you with 100% certainty where there are any public chargers where I live. I know there's a handful at the local college, but you have to be registered as a student there to get a parking permit.
I know there a bunch (maybe 2 dozen) at Northridge Mall, but that's 60 miles away.

Google tells me there are 63 charging points here, 6 are at the local hospital. Population is about 200,000.
User avatar
Taipan
Posts: 13264
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:48 pm
Location: Essex Riviera!
Has thanked: 15610 times
Been thanked: 9850 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Taipan »

ZRX61 wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:28 pm I couldn't tell you with 100% certainty where there are any public chargers where I live. I know there's a handful at the local college, but you have to be registered as a student there to get a parking permit.
I know there a bunch (maybe 2 dozen) at Northridge Mall, but that's 60 miles away.

Google tells me there are 63 charging points here, 6 are at the local hospital. Population is about 200,000.
We have complaints about sales exceeding infrastructure here, so I could never see EVs working in the states as anything other than city cars for some time to come. Plus, Americans do starship mileages compared to us Brits, again making EVs less suitable for over there.
User avatar
ZRX61
Posts: 4854
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm
Location: Solar Blight Valley
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 1331 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by ZRX61 »

Taipan wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:47 am We have complaints about sales exceeding infrastructure here, so I could never see EVs working in the states as anything other than city cars for some time to come. Plus, Americans do starship mileages compared to us Brits, again making EVs less suitable for over there.
Freightliner just released specs on their EV big rig. It has a range of less than 300 miles. A diesel big rig has a range of 900-2000 miles on full tanks.
User avatar
Taipan
Posts: 13264
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:48 pm
Location: Essex Riviera!
Has thanked: 15610 times
Been thanked: 9850 times

Re: Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

Post by Taipan »

ZRX61 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:10 pm
Taipan wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:47 am We have complaints about sales exceeding infrastructure here, so I could never see EVs working in the states as anything other than city cars for some time to come. Plus, Americans do starship mileages compared to us Brits, again making EVs less suitable for over there.
Freightliner just released specs on their EV big rig. It has a range of less than 300 miles. A diesel big rig has a range of 900-2000 miles on full tanks.
Lolz! :D I imagine the charge times are interesting too! Freight would have to be on a swappable battery to be viable I think.