Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Riding tips, guides, safety gear, IAM, ROSPA and anything related to keeping riders alive longer !
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 13957
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2552 times
Been thanked: 6257 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Ah, but consider...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... technology

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/the ... ghts-15081

Maybe it's a Panamera with a big V8! Or an Audi like the one right in your mirrors.

Who knows.

As above, I'm sure it must be some third party system bought in. I could probably even look under the bonnet to find out :think:

Edit: That first article has a pic of the system in action. This isn't an exaggeration, it really is that "neat" at drawing a box around oncoming cars. Watching it makes Mrs D travel sick :lol:

Image
Scootabout
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:41 pm
Has thanked: 480 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Scootabout »

Rockburner wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:30 am
Who, me?

Nowhere, it's what i think.
My fault for failing to leave the quotes in.
Hot_Air
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:14 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1373 times
Been thanked: 253 times

Yellow Lights

Post by Hot_Air »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:39 pm
Hot_Air wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:39 pm While I agree that acting smarter is the higher priority, you suggested yellow lights could aid conspicuity.

I expect you’re correct — with the usual caveats that nothing is guaranteed, no single measure is foolproof, proactive riding matters more, etc.
Absolutely...
For interest — While Denali lights aren’t cheap, they offer a Selective Yellow Lens Kit for most of their range.

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11559
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6198 times
Been thanked: 5088 times

Re: Yellow Lights

Post by Horse »

Hot_Air wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:02 am
For interest — While Denali lights aren’t cheap, they offer a Selective Yellow Lens Kit for most of their range.

We bought some of them. Possibly.
20231128_113342.jpg
20231128_113342.jpg (447.74 KiB) Viewed 574 times
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Or you could save a bit of money...

Image

https://scienceofbeingseen.org/conclusi ... ould-work/
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills
User avatar
Dodgy69
Posts: 5459
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:36 pm
Location: Shrewsbury
Has thanked: 1750 times
Been thanked: 2085 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Dodgy69 »

Yamaha rocket 3
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11559
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6198 times
Been thanked: 5088 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Horse »

Interesting technology mentioned:

Note: The replacement lamp wick
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
MrLongbeard
Posts: 4595
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:06 pm
Has thanked: 599 times
Been thanked: 2449 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by MrLongbeard »

moar light aziz

Image
User avatar
Dodgy69
Posts: 5459
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:36 pm
Location: Shrewsbury
Has thanked: 1750 times
Been thanked: 2085 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Dodgy69 »

As someone mentioned earlier, maybe all bikes should have a different coloured headlight to cars.
Yamaha rocket 3
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 13957
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2552 times
Been thanked: 6257 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Maybe bikes should only have one light, so you know its a bike. ;)
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11559
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6198 times
Been thanked: 5088 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Horse »

Dodgy69 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:29 pm maybe all bikes should have a different coloured headlight to cars.
Depends on which problem you think it will fix.

It would need a. all drivers to know the difference and b. how they should behave differently. Which a. wont happen and b. won't make much difference to SMIDSYs.

At night, it might help with distance judgement - i.e. understanding that it's a bike, so may be closer and closing more quickly.

But ... you have the perennial problem with any conspicuity 'aid' - what the rider expects it to achieve. The same as having a headlamp on "so he must have seen me!" And it couldn't be made retrospective, so existing bikes might be at a disadvantage.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4465
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2554 times
Been thanked: 2287 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Cousin Jack »

Let us not forget the original purpose of headlights, so that the rider rider can see in the dark. The absolute best lights I have ever had on a bike for that was the 800 VFR. 2x55w halogen dips, and and extra 2x55 on main beam, so 220 w of light pointing down the road, all in one assembly. I am sure that clever manufacturers could replicate that performance with a single LED assembly, but I have never seen anything that comes close. What I have seen is lots of bikes where headlight are crap, with weird patterns designed to look good in magazines and photo-shoots.
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Horse wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:02 pm
Dodgy69 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:29 pm maybe all bikes should have a different coloured headlight to cars.
Depends on which problem you think it will fix.

It would need a. all drivers to know the difference and b. how they should behave differently. Which a. wont happen and b. won't make much difference to SMIDSYs.
Not necessarily... visual attention is via a combination of saccades and fixations - the saccades are the moments when our gaze sweeps rapidly across the scene, and the fixations occur when that motion stops and we fix the point of gaze in one place. It's during the fixations not the saccades when we perform an analysis of the visual field. The evidence from research using yellow lights on bikes in a visual field with other vehicles using white lights suggests that drivers do have their eyes fix on the bikes using yellow lights more frequently than bike with white lights. That's all written up on www.scienceofbeingseen.org

You don't need a driver to understand they are seeing a PTW at that point - the 'stop and examine' reaction should reveal that to be the case.
At night, it might help with distance judgement - i.e. understanding that it's a bike, so may be closer and closing more quickly.
The big problem with distance judgement (as I also cover in SOBS) is that fully 1 in 3 drivers SEE a motorcycle then misjudge speed and distance. This is an inherent problem apparently connected with the tall but thin profile of a motorcycle. It seems the brain tends to use the relative growth in the horizontal plane to judge distance and speed of approach, not the vertical. So put side by side with a car or a truck, moving at the same speed, the average observer will think they have more time before the motorcycle arrives, even though both will arrive at the same instant. The driver would have to be aware of the cognitive weakness to know what to do having spotted a yellow light.

Oddly enough, trials with odd lighting patterns revealed that drivers identified a motorcycle with a single headlight more quickly than unusual lighting patterns! The results suggest they usually spotting multiple lights further off, but then failed to make sense of what they were seeing. By the time the lights were recognised as belonging to a motorcycle, the multi-lights bike was closer than the bike with one single headlight, and even a bike with NO lights at all.

And that is likely to be a negative effect of the current trend for fancy LED DRLs in the weird headlights that are currently appearing on bikes.

But ... you have the perennial problem with any conspicuity 'aid' - what the rider expects it to achieve. The same as having a headlamp on "so he must have seen me!" And it couldn't be made retrospective, so existing bikes might be at a disadvantage.
See the photo of my perspex headlight covers. Four bits of sticky hook and loop and they were fitted. Hardly tricky.

But I agree, it's time that we had a switch of emphasis from 'be bright, be safe' to a much more considered and proactive response to looking out for ourselves. I've only been banging this drum since the mid 1990s!
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Dodgy69 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:29 pm As someone mentioned earlier, maybe all bikes should have a different coloured headlight to cars.
Might have been Science Of Being Seen :)

YELLOW DAYTIME LIGHTS: Given the growing conflict between new cars with day running lights, yellow lights offer an opportunity for motorcycle DRLs to be visually distinct again. As long ago as 1981, Olson et al looked at permanently illuminating the turn indicators when they were not flashing to signal a manoeuvre. There is some debate about whether a standard 21w bulb behind a yellow lens is bright enough to function effectively as a DRL but Olson et al found always-on amber ‘running lights’ increased the size of gap that drivers would leave when turning ahead of a motorcycle.

Given the growing conflict between new cars with day running lights, yellow lights offer an opportunity for motorcycle DRLs to be visually distinct again. Paine et al (2005) argue that: “all that is required is the replacement of normal motorcycle turn signals”. 64th session of the United Nations Working Party on Lighting and Light-Signalling in 2011 a motion called for amber position lamps (APL) to be made mandatory on motorcycles. Espie et al (2014) concluded that:

“…results indicate that headlight configurations comprising additional yellow lights on the fork and on the motorcyclist’s helmet significantly improve motorcycle perceptibility by other vehicle drivers.”

Pintoa et al (2014) tested:

“…three conspicuity enhancements designed to improve motorcycle detectability in a car-DRL environment: a triangle configuration (a central headlight plus two lights located on the rearview mirrors), a helmet configuration (a light located on the motorcyclist’s helmet in addition to the central headlight), and a single central yellow headlight. These three front-light configurations were evaluated in comparison to the standard configuration (a single central white headlight)… The results revealed better motorcycle-detection performance for both the yellow headlight and the helmet configuration than for the standard configuration.”

Even though we have to be a little cautious in accepting the results without question – the study was laboratory-based, and involved “photographs representing complex urban traffic scenes [which] were presented briefly (for 250 ms)” – the results are in agreement with Espie et al (2014).

However, the benefits of yellow lights appear not to be confined to position lights alone. Espie et al (2014) also concluded that a SINGLE YELLOW HEADLIGHT had a significant positive effect, particularly in an environment full of white car DRLs. So why did they NOT suggest yellow headlights?

“In terms of application, it is probably not realistic to assume that [motorcycles] could be equipped with yellow frontal headlights, because they are less efficient for lighting the street.”

It’s true yellow lights are less effective in their primary role, which serves to confirm the point I made earlier about the essential conflict between the use of a headlight as a DRL with its main role of lighting the way at night. On the other hand, the paper did not consider:

* that the majority of junction collisions happen in daylight
* that of those collisions that do happen at night, most occur under urban street lighting, where the headlight’s role of illuminating the roadway is arguably relatively less important than conspicuity
* that a yellow headlight is a simple modification that can be easily retro-fitted to the existing motorcycle fleet
* that a yellow daytime headlight is not necessarily something that cannot be switched back to a white light for night-time use on unlit roads

The big plus is that compared with installing amber turn signal running lights which would require modification of the motorcycle’s wiring to carry both circuits, it’s an incredibly simple modification. There are two options:

if the machine is fitted with incandescent bulbs, a bulb replacement is a five minute job on most motorcycles. If you ride exclusively in built-up areas with street lighting, this may all that you need to do. No alterations to the wiring are needed. It can be carried out by nearly any bike owner.
if a bulb swap is not possible (for example, new machines are being fitted with LED bulbs), it may be possible to fit a yellow headlight cover secured by hook-and-loop fastenings. They are available as aftermarket parts for most popular bikes, protect the lens from stone chips and can be removed for night riding on unlit roads

In either case – and possibly a decisive factor in rider take-up – neither bulbs nor headlight covers are expensive. In my opinion, Espie et al (2014) based their recommendation on an incomplete understanding of what can be done to modify an existing PTW.
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Cousin Jack wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:41 pm Let us not forget the original purpose of headlights, so that the rider rider can see in the dark.
The trouble is, the better the lights are for seeing at night, the worse they are in daytime use. Those low beam lights are specifically designed NOT to shine in someone's eyes, and the better lights have got, the more important it is to get the focus right... which is why low beam lights have proven so ineffective in the DRL role.
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4465
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2554 times
Been thanked: 2287 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Cousin Jack »

So I have bright but low power LED auxiliary lights that are shining at oncoming drivers in daylight. I rarely use the bike in the dark these days, and will probably switch them off if I do.

Not ideal, but IMO it helps (a bit, perhaps only a small bit).
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Cousin Jack wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:36 pm So I have bright but low power LED auxiliary lights that are shining at oncoming drivers in daylight. I rarely use the bike in the dark these days, and will probably switch them off if I do.

Not ideal, but IMO it helps (a bit, perhaps only a small bit).
The TRL researched DRLs back in the 70s... 10w bulb in a reversing light (the lens throws light over a wide angle) was their choice! Police bikes had 'em fitted for years.
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills
Hot_Air
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:14 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1373 times
Been thanked: 253 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Hot_Air »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:36 pm “…results indicate that headlight configurations comprising additional yellow lights on the fork and on the motorcyclist’s helmet significantly improve motorcycle perceptibility by other vehicle drivers.” [...] It’s true yellow lights are less effective in their primary role, which serves to confirm the point I made earlier about the essential conflict between the use of a headlight as a DRL with its main role of lighting the way at night.
One solution is a conventional headlight to help us see at night, plus yellow auxiliary lights to boost conspicuity. And this arrangement could form a triangle of lights, too.
User avatar
Dodgy69
Posts: 5459
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:36 pm
Location: Shrewsbury
Has thanked: 1750 times
Been thanked: 2085 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by Dodgy69 »

Thats 👆 what I saw the other week. Proper contrasting light affair. Definitely stood out from the crowd. 👍
Yamaha rocket 3
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2636 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Hot_Air wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:21 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:36 pm “…results indicate that headlight configurations comprising additional yellow lights on the fork and on the motorcyclist’s helmet significantly improve motorcycle perceptibility by other vehicle drivers.” [...] It’s true yellow lights are less effective in their primary role, which serves to confirm the point I made earlier about the essential conflict between the use of a headlight as a DRL with its main role of lighting the way at night.
One solution is a conventional headlight to help us see at night, plus yellow auxiliary lights to boost conspicuity. And this arrangement could form a triangle of lights, too.
You still have to be recognised... that's why the unusual lighting patterns fall down... it's one thing getting people to 'spot them' in a trial, it's another altogether to have a driver react for real on the road. The risk of you and me looking at a 'conspicuous' light pattern is that we're already primed to detect motorcycles because we ride them. It's well known that people with an expertise in a particular field are far quicker to spot items related to their field than the average observer.

As I showed earlier, I have an inexpensive and removable perspex cover over the headlight. Not perfect beam pattern for a DRL but the cover does actually scatter a fair amount of light.
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." Henry David Thoreau
www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills www.survivalskillsridertraining.co.uk www.facebook.com/survivalskills