Do auxiliary lights help you be seen?

[The Spin Doctor]

I wonder whether the stylists ever actually view prototypes under 'real' conditions. For example, Filly had an Altea which had circular rear light clusters, with the indicator as the 'dot' inside the side/brake ring. As soon as the brakes were used, the indicator was near impossible to see.

Could it be that, very simply, the lighting has to be fitted and working, but nothing says it has to be any good? Think about how many bikes have appalling headlamps, when things like the Cibie 'Z Beam'* was available 40+ years ago.

* For the youngsters: at the time, halogen wasn't standard, let alone LED. One of the magazines did a comparison test and the 'Z' (which was an H4) dip beam shone brighter and further than a Yamaha XS750's main beam.

Funnily enough, I was going to mention that very light cluster - it was also fitted to VW's own Passat - the late 90s model I think it was. All I can say in it's favour is that it was no worse than the US cars that flash a brake light as a turn signal.

I'm not sure where standards reside? EU with E marking? Or is there a deeper level such as the UN?

Five seconds later:

This is ten years old

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/d ... 68-10e.pdf

"Jointly work toward global harmonisation of lighting and light-signalling regulation to:
 encourage the universal adoption of “simplified” UN Regulations
 facilitate the introduction of new technologies and support manufacturers to
be competitive
 maintain the prime emphasis of traffic safety

[Noggin]

but have found them to be ideal when filtering on dual carriageways in heavy traffic as they are around car mirror height so switching them on acts like the parting of the red sea in most cases and once the filtering is over i turn them off again

This is how I see them as useful. If you were in traffic with the lights on all the time, no one would 'see' you. But because you turn them on to make yourself 'seen', it works! That I like. People having them on all the time need a slap!

[The Spin Doctor]

but have found them to be ideal when filtering on dual carriageways in heavy traffic as they are around car mirror height so switching them on acts like the parting of the red sea in most cases and once the filtering is over i turn them off again

This is how I see them as useful. If you were in traffic with the lights on all the time, no one would 'see' you. But because you turn them on to make yourself 'seen', it works! That I like. People having them on all the time need a slap!

Even in this example, they only work when the angles are right to allow them to appear in a mirror.

A few years back, I had to explain this to a rider on one of my courses who was spluttering with rage about the driver who'd "just cut him up" despite the full Charlie n Ewan battery on the front of his GS... he'd used the cross hatchings "to make progress" just like his IAM guy had shown him down the cross-hatchings past a string of slower-moving traffic.

His spleen was directed at a driver who'd cut into the cross-hatched area about 20 metres before a right-turn refuge. "The driver didn't look".

The driver didn't SEE. The main road was curving to the left, the vehicle behind the car was a truck. The driver wouldn't have seen the bike before he popped his indicator on and moved out, because there was no line-of-sight.

I see riders filtering on motorways through slow traffic at silly speeds oblivious to the fact that any car driver ahead of a wide vehicle is unlikely to be able to see a bike until it's almost on top of them, yet they ride as if the road's deserted.

[Count Steer]

A few years back, I had to explain this to a rider on one of my courses who was spluttering with rage about the driver who'd "just cut him up" despite the full Charlie n Ewan battery on the front of his GS...

IIRC Charlie's bike had an additional pair of spots, which given that the R1150GS headlight was a tad pants, doesn't seem unreasonable for the roads they were riding. Seems a bit unfair to blame them for the Christmas tree arrays on the 'Long Way Round to the Café' brigades bikes.

PS Yup. 1 pair spots on each bike.

[Rockburner]

but have found them to be ideal when filtering on dual carriageways in heavy traffic as they are around car mirror height so switching them on acts like the parting of the red sea in most cases and once the filtering is over i turn them off again

This is how I see them as useful. If you were in traffic with the lights on all the time, no one would 'see' you. But because you turn them on to make yourself 'seen', it works! That I like. People having them on all the time need a slap!

Even in this example, they only work when the angles are right to allow them to appear in a mirror.

A few years back, I had to explain this to a rider on one of my courses who was spluttering with rage about the driver who'd "just cut him up" despite the full Charlie n Ewan battery on the front of his GS... he'd used the cross hatchings "to make progress" just like his IAM guy had shown him down the cross-hatchings past a string of slower-moving traffic.

His spleen was directed at a driver who'd cut into the cross-hatched area about 20 metres before a right-turn refuge. "The driver didn't look".

The driver didn't SEE. The main road was curving to the left, the vehicle behind the car was a truck. The driver wouldn't have seen the bike before he popped his indicator on and moved out, because there was no line-of-sight.

I see riders filtering on motorways through slow traffic at silly speeds oblivious to the fact that any car driver ahead of a wide vehicle is unlikely to be able to see a bike until it's almost on top of them, yet they ride as if the road's deserted.

It take a LOT of imagination to be able to put yourself into the position of each car driver in the vehicles around you, and then figure out what they can and can't see, and then a huge spark of understanding and self-realisation to realise, and then accept, that you yourself might be the one at fault in any given scenario.

It's no wonder that bikers find that sort of self-introspection hard to do: to it have enough confidence to ride something that is going to fall over at the first opportunity takes a certain amount of egotism; simply to have the confidence to ride the thing: that will work against any ability to see oneself as being in the wrong. Factor in as well that a distinct lack of imagination is required to be able to ignore (or at least dismiss) the risks involved, especially when riding at higher speeds, or in higher levels of traffic without constantly freaking out.

[Rockburner]

A few years back, I had to explain this to a rider on one of my courses who was spluttering with rage about the driver who'd "just cut him up" despite the full Charlie n Ewan battery on the front of his GS...

IIRC Charlie's bike had an additional pair of spots, which given that the R1150GS headlight was a tad pants, doesn't seem unreasonable for the roads they were riding. Seems a bit unfair to blame them for the Christmas tree arrays on the 'Long Way Round to the Café' brigades bikes.

The 1150GS full beam is a shockingly bad light, it's a spotlight that isn't terribly bright, and the beam pattern only lights a circle about 2-3 metres wide at 50 metres. If you're riding one at night, it's almost obligatory to put auxiliary lights on to be able to actually see when on a dark road. Before I fitted them to the Rockster I nearly crashed several times* because when you peel into any form of corner at over 50mph the full beam isn't illuminating the road at all. The supplementary lights (on my bikes at least) are there to illuminate the road surface in corners.

* one particular corner springs to mind - the long left hander southbound on the southern half of the Billingshurst bypass road. It's a fast, modern, open road with no junctions of any sort, but on an R1150GS or Rockster without aux full beams that corner on a January evening is lethal, simply because you can't see the road at all.

[Count Steer]

A few years back, I had to explain this to a rider on one of my courses who was spluttering with rage about the driver who'd "just cut him up" despite the full Charlie n Ewan battery on the front of his GS...

IIRC Charlie's bike had an additional pair of spots, which given that the R1150GS headlight was a tad pants, doesn't seem unreasonable for the roads they were riding. Seems a bit unfair to blame them for the Christmas tree arrays on the 'Long Way Round to the Café' brigades bikes.

The 1150GS full beam is a shockingly bad light, it's a spotlight that isn't terribly bright, and the beam pattern only lights a circle about 2-3 metres wide at 50 metres. If you're riding one at night, it's almost obligatory to put auxiliary lights on to be able to actually see when on a dark road. Before I fitted them to the Rockster I nearly crashed several times* because when you peel into any form of corner at over 50mph the full beam isn't illuminating the road at all. The supplementary lights (on my bikes at least) are there to illuminate the road surface in corners.

* one particular corner springs to mind - the long left hander southbound on the southern half of the Billingshurst bypass road. It's a fast, modern, open road with no junctions of any sort, but on an R1150GS or Rockster without aux full beams that corner on a January evening is lethal, simply because you can't see the road at all.

I never fitted them to any of my bikes but often wished I had on the GS. The road parallel with the M25 from Reigate Hill (Gatton Bottom) was particularly riding home from work in winter. The stacked headlight on the ST, although ugly, was better and the K12 Xenon thingummybob was The R1150 though was 'candle in a jam jar'.

[Dodgy69]

I was waiting at a T junction the other week when a gs went passed. His drls were yellow and against his white headlight i thought it did show up more than usual.

However, I am conscious of bikes as we all are on here and you do have to be looking in that direction. So, who knows.

[Rockburner]

I was waiting at a T junction the other week when a gs went passed. His drls were yellow and against his white headlight i thought it did show up more than usual.

However, I am conscious of bikes as we all are on here and you do have to be looking in that direction. So, who knows.

It has to be said - yellow lights DO show up well, mainly because they're a string contrast to the sea of white lights that is most of the rest of the traffic, and b) they're rare.

[Mr. Dazzle]

His spleen was directed at a driver who'd cut into the cross-hatched area about 20 metres before a right-turn refuge. "The driver didn't look".

People are bloody daft sometimes.

If you can't see a car around a blind corner, they can't see you...physics is funny like that A steam of traffic blocks the view just as well as a hedgerow.

[Wossname]

And there’s a right turn ahead, which someone may use and will have been signed before you got there. Rider error, or at least an unwise moment to use that word, “progress”.

[Dodgy69]

Blue drls might help, but....

[Rockburner]

Blue drls might help, but....

I did once come up with a scheme where certain "particularly at risk or dangerous" vehicles would (by law) be required to have different coloured dip/drl beams.
IIRC it was something like:
vast majority of traffic: white
PTWs : light yellow
HGVs : light green
Emergency vehicles: light red.

Obviously it doesn't really work when you take into account the prevalence of colour-blind people, and the difficulty of finding contrasting shades that can distinguished by everyone

[Mr. Dazzle]

PTWs and classic French rally cars, surely.

[Demannu]

Are aux lights another step back from personal responsibility.
100w of personal deflector shield around the bike.
My old r1100s had poor headlights........until i dropped a couple of hids in there, problem solved.
At night i do have a habit of giving the vehicle I'm about to overtake a quick bit of full beam, just to make them aware somethings happening, but I'd never use the 'well you MUST have seen me!' excuse. I guess I'm lucky I dont have to do much urban riding these days though!

[Count Steer]

Blue drls might help, but....

I did once come up with a scheme where certain "particularly at risk or dangerous" vehicles would (by law) be required to have different coloured dip/drl beams.
IIRC it was something like:
vast majority of traffic: white
PTWs : light yellow
HGVs : light green
Emergency vehicles: light red.

Obviously it doesn't really work when you take into account the prevalence of colour-blind people, and the difficulty of finding contrasting shades that can distinguished by everyone

The main problem there is red/green. Orange/blue might work. (Wouldn't be a problem for wimmin' though, for some reason they aren't the delightfully termed 'colour defective'). I am red/green colour blind but it isn't like people think. I don't have a problem with traffic lights, it's the sort of overlaps and even odd things like purples and browns that we see differently. Never had a problem with the greens and reds on a snooker table but did occasionally pot the brown (fnarrr) thinking it was a red. Generally if the light levels are high, it's not really a problem or if the colours are 'pure'. Pain in the nethers with some of the little stuff like chargers with tiny lights that go from red to green when things are charged.

There are now pics out their that show 'normals' how us 'defectives' see things. Our world is nicer.

[Horse]

There are now pics out their that show 'normals' how us 'defectives' see things.

ppe-report.jpg (21.17 KiB) Viewed 360 times

[Horse]

It take a LOT of imagination to be able to put yourself into the position of each car driver in the vehicles around you, and then figure out what they can and can't see, and then a huge spark of understanding and self-realisation to realise, and then accept, that you yourself might be the one at fault in any given scenario.


self-introspection hard to do

Internal (ie 'my responsibility') Vs external ('his fault') locus of control.

[Dodgy69]

I'm a defective, red and green. But I can see grass is green and cherry's are red and Mrs Dodgy agrees they are red and green.

It's just those colour charts I ain't very good at.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I never knew being colour blind made you see cop cars as hexagons.

Every day is a school day.