In todays news...

[MyLittleStudPony]

One of the protesters on the march, Rachel Solnick, 37, a PhD student, told the Guardian: “I feel really appalled by how some of the framing around liberation for Palestine has been as if there’s an opposition, or some kind of binary between Jewish safety and Palestinian safety. I absolutely disagree with that framing.

“I think that loads of us who have Jewish ancestry feel really strongly that what is taking place in Palestine is ethnic cleansing and we don’t want it to happen in our names. It feels so important to gather here in numbers, as Jews and as members of the British public in general, to counter that narrative.”

[Potter]

The police report said there was no case to answer, but that clearly doesn't suit you, sir. On the basis of the police report it does rather seem that it was all in your imagination or at the very least you wished it was true.

The police report says that they can’t find enough evidence to prosecute anyone. Unsurprising considering no one was arrested, has been identified or come forward admitting guilt.

People get assaulted sometimes and they can’t find the guilty party. They haven’t even found all the guilty parties involved in the Stephen Lawrence case despite millions of pounds and thousands of detective manhours.

This doesn’t mean it didn’t take place.

[mangocrazy]

And it doesn't mean it did, either.

[Potter]

And it doesn't mean it did, either.

But you now agree that I didn’t just make it up?

We’ll go through this one step at a time if that’s your pace.

Are you now saying the poppy seller is the liar and not me?

[Potter]

From the BBC

Police in the control room are also examining social media, and say they have seen people at the main protest pictured with pro-Hamas slogans. They are trying to identify these people.

But, unlike the counter-protesters, these people are harder to find and arrest.

[MyLittleStudPony]

I just flicked the news on, to be fair the only problems so far have been from white supremacists, not entirely unexpected, they're probably sore from dragging their knuckles on the ground so much.

The Jew hater Corbyn is on the march now though, I think the only decent thing Starmer has done so far is cancel him and ensure that he's never near power again.

I'm not convinced Corbyn is antisemitic. I've just read David Baddiel's "Jews Don't Count" while on a island hideaway holiday with my younger, PAWG'y, fancy-high-price-lawyer girlfriend.

Anyway, the book is very much about highlighting current day antisemitism and all he levels at Corbyn is pronouncing Jeffrey Epstein "Epshtein". I do think Corbyn is pro Palestine which almost by default makes him anti Israel. But as Baddiel points out, Israel and being Jewish are not the same. Baddiel goes as far as saying: "Fuck Israel".

FWIW I thought it was a good book and made a good point and I've got a lot of time for David Baddiel.

[mangocrazy]

And it doesn't mean it did, either.

But you now agree that I didn’t just make it up?

We’ll go through this one step at a time if that’s your pace.

Are you now saying the poppy seller is the liar and not me?

The police report states that there was insufficient evidence to decide if an offence had actually been committed, which means that the so called attack is basically hearsay. If you want to use hearsay as the basis for an accusation of a hate attack, that's your business.

But don't expect me to give it any credence.

[Potter]

The police report states that there was insufficient evidence to decide if an offence had actually been committed, which means that the so called attack is basically hearsay. If you want to use hearsay as the basis for an accusation of a hate attack, that's your business.

But don't expect me to give it any credence.

You acknowledge the police report, good, now we agree I didn’t make it up.

Do you think the poppy seller is a liar and has made a false statement?

[mangocrazy]

I'm not convinced Corbyn is antisemitic. I've just read David Baddiel's "Jews Don't Count" while on a island hideaway holiday with my younger, PAWG'y, fancy-high-price-lawyer girlfriend.

Anyway, the book is very much about highlighting current day antisemitism and all he levels at Corbyn is pronouncing Jeffrey Epstein "Epshtein". I do think Corbyn is pro Palestine which almost by default makes him anti Israel. But as Baddiel points out, Israel and being Jewish are not the same. Baddiel goes as far as saying: "Fuck Israel".

FWIW I thought it was a good book and made a good point and I've got a lot of time for David Baddiel.

The state of Israel has basically conned the rest of the world into accepting that any criticism of the state of Israel equates to anti-semitism. This is clearly bollocks, but it's very widely accepted bollocks.

I don't believe Corbyn is anti-semitic either. He is a vocal and trenchant critic of Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians, but that does not make him anti-semitic.

[irie]

Well, well! Dozens of statue defenders arrested and the peace march allowed to take place in peace. This new head of the Met is so much better than the last one.

They weren't "statue defenders", they are a well known bunch of nasty violent thugs which likes a fight with anyone, left, right, centre, police, they don't care who.

But you know this anyway.

[mangocrazy]

The police report states that there was insufficient evidence to decide if an offence had actually been committed, which means that the so called attack is basically hearsay. If you want to use hearsay as the basis for an accusation of a hate attack, that's your business.

But don't expect me to give it any credence.

You acknowledge the police report, good, now we agree I didn’t make it up.

Do you think the poppy seller is a liar and has made a false statement?

You willingly followed the narrative of the popular press in rushing to judgement while being aware that the police report was non-committal at best. So you basically propagated something that could neither be proved or disproved.

As for the poppy seller, he may have been lying or he may have been telling the truth, but on the basis of the police report we have no way of knowing.

[MyLittleStudPony]

Well, well! Dozens of statue defenders arrested and the peace march allowed to take place in peace. This new head of the Met is so much better than the last one.

They weren't "statue defenders", they are a well known bunch of nasty violent thugs which likes a fight with anyone, left, right, centre, police, they don't care who.

But you know this anyway.

They had gathered near a statue, in order to defend it. Nominally, at least. I do accept their true motivation may have been to have a fight or perhaps represent a certain viewpoint moreso than the statue defending. As you so rightly point out.

[irie]

I'm not convinced Corbyn is antisemitic. I've just read David Baddiel's "Jews Don't Count" while on a island hideaway holiday with my younger, PAWG'y, fancy-high-price-lawyer girlfriend.

Anyway, the book is very much about highlighting current day antisemitism and all he levels at Corbyn is pronouncing Jeffrey Epstein "Epshtein". I do think Corbyn is pro Palestine which almost by default makes him anti Israel. But as Baddiel points out, Israel and being Jewish are not the same. Baddiel goes as far as saying: "Fuck Israel".

FWIW I thought it was a good book and made a good point and I've got a lot of time for David Baddiel.

The state of Israel has basically conned the rest of the world into accepting that any criticism of the state of Israel equates to anti-semitism. This is clearly bollocks, but it's very widely accepted bollocks.

I don't believe Corbyn is anti-semitic either. He is a vocal and trenchant critic of Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians, but that does not make him anti-semitic.

I think you should read the Hamas Covenant posted below in its entirety. hth

Hamas is an acronym for: Harakat al Muqawamah al Islamiyah (Islamic resistance movement)

The Hamas Covenant 2 May 2017

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of all worlds. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon Muhammad, the Master of Messengers and the Leader of the mujahidin, and upon his household and all his companions.

Preamble

Palestine is the land of the Arab Palestinian people, from it they originate, to it they adhere and belong, and about it they reach out and communicate.

Palestine is a land whose status has been elevated by Islam, a faith that holds it in high esteem, that breathes through it its spirit and just values and that lays the foundation for the doctrine of defending and protecting it.

Palestine is the cause of a people who have been let down by a world that fails to secure their rights and restore to them what has been usurped from them, a people whose land continues to suffer one of the worst types of occupation in this world.

Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project

Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.

Palestine symbolises the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital.

Palestine is the true partnership among Palestinians of all affiliations for the sublime objective of liberation.

Palestine is the spirit of the Ummah and its central cause; it is the soul of humanity and its living conscience.

This document is the product of deep deliberations that led us to a strong consensus. As a movement, we agree about both the theory and the practice of the vision that is outlined in the pages that follow. It is a vision that stands on solid grounds and on well-established principles. This document unveils the goals, the milestones and the way in which national unity can be enforced. It also establishes our common understanding of the Palestinian cause, the working principles which we use to further it, and the limits of flexibility used to interpret it.

The movement

1. The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means.

The Land of Palestine

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.

3. Palestine is an Arab Islamic land. It is a blessed sacred land that has a special place in the heart of every Arab and every Muslim.

The Palestinian people

4. The Palestinians are the Arabs who lived in Palestine until 1947, irrespective of whether they were expelled from it, or stayed in it; and every person that was born to an Arab Palestinian father after that date, whether inside or outside Palestine, is a Palestinian.

Catastrophes... cannot erase the identity of the Palestinian people nor can they negate it

5. The Palestinian identity is authentic and timeless; it is passed from generation to generation. The catastrophes that have befallen the Palestinian people, as a consequence of the Zionist occupation and its policy of displacement, cannot erase the identity of the Palestinian people nor can they negate it. A Palestinian shall not lose his or her national identity or rights by acquiring a second nationality.

6. The Palestinian people are one people, made up of all Palestinians, inside and outside of Palestine, irrespective of their religion, culture or political affiliation.

Islam and Palestine

7. Palestine is at the heart of the Arab and Islamic Ummah and enjoys a special status. Within Palestine there exists Jerusalem, whose precincts are blessed by Allah. Palestine is the Holy Land, which Allah has blessed for humanity. It is the Muslims’ first Qiblah and the destination of the journey performed at night by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. It is the location from where he ascended to the upper heavens. It is the birthplace of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. Its soil contains the remains of thousands of prophets, companions and mujahidin. It is the land of people who are determined to defend the truth – within Jerusalem and its surroundings – who are not deterred or intimidated by those who oppose them and by those who betray them, and they will continue their mission until the Promise of Allah is fulfilled.

8. By virtue of its justly balanced middle way and moderate spirit, Islam – for Hamas - provides a comprehensive way of life and an order that is fit for purpose at all times and in all places. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. It provides an umbrella for the followers of other creeds and religions who can practice their beliefs in security and safety. Hamas also believes that Palestine has always been and will always be a model of coexistence, tolerance and civilizational innovation.

9. Hamas believes that the message of Islam upholds the values of truth, justice, freedom and dignity and prohibits all forms of injustice and incriminates oppressors irrespective of their religion, race, gender or nationality. Islam is against all forms of religious, ethnic or sectarian extremism and bigotry. It is the religion that inculcates in its followers the value of standing up to aggression and of supporting the oppressed; it motivates them to give generously and make sacrifices in defence of their dignity, their land, their peoples and their holy places.

Jerusalem

10. Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. Its religious, historic and civilisational status is fundamental to the Arabs, Muslims and the world at large. Its Islamic and Christian holy places belong exclusively to the Palestinian people and to the Arab and Islamic Ummah. Not one stone of Jerusalem can be surrendered or relinquished. The measures undertaken by the occupiers in Jerusalem, such as Judaisation, settlement building, and establishing facts on the ground are fundamentally null and void.

11. The blessed al-Aqsa Mosque belongs exclusively to our people and our Ummah, and the occupation has no right to it whatsoever. The occupation’s plots, measures and attempts to judaize al-Aqsa and divide it are null, void and illegitimate.

Refugees and right of return

12. The Palestinian cause in its essence is a cause of an occupied land and a displaced people. The right of the Palestinian refugees and the displaced to return to their homes from which they were banished or were banned from returning to – whether in the lands occupied in 1948 or in 1967 (that is the whole of Palestine), is a natural right, both individual and collective. This right is confirmed by all divine laws as well as by the basic principles of human rights and international law. It is an inalienable right and cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international.

13. Hamas rejects all attempts to erase the rights of the refugees, including the attempts to settle them outside Palestine and through the projects of the alternative homeland. Compensation to the Palestinian refugees for the harm they have suffered as a consequence of banishing them and occupying their land is an absolute right that goes hand in hand with their right to return. They are to receive compensation upon their return and this does not negate or diminish their right to return.

The Zionist project

14. The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.

15. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.

The position toward Occupation and political solutions

18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity

21. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).

22. Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.

23. Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah.

Resistance and Liberation

24. The liberation of Palestine is the duty of the Palestinian people in particular and the duty of the Arab and Islamic Ummah in general. It is also a humanitarian obligation as necessitated by the dictates of truth and justice. The agencies working for Palestine, whether national, Arab, Islamic or humanitarian, complement each other and are harmonious and not in conflict with each other.

25. Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.

26. Hamas rejects any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms. It also affirms the right of our people to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance. Managing resistance, in terms of escalation or de-escalation, or in terms of diversifying the means and methods, is an integral part of the process of managing the conflict and should not be at the expense of the principle of resistance.

The Palestinian political system

27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.

28. Hamas believes in, and adheres to, managing its Palestinian relations on the basis of pluralism, democracy, national partnership, acceptance of the other and the adoption of dialogue. The aim is to bolster the unity of ranks and joint action for the purpose of accomplishing national goals and fulfilling the aspirations of the Palestinian people.

The PLO is a national framework for the Palestinian people

29. The PLO is a national framework for the Palestinian people inside and outside of Palestine. It should therefore be preserved, developed and rebuilt on democratic foundations so as to secure the participation of all the constituents and forces of the Palestinian people, in a manner that safeguards Palestinian rights.

30. Hamas stresses the necessity of building Palestinian national institutions on sound democratic principles, foremost among them are free and fair elections. Such process should be on the basis of national partnership and in accordance with a clear programme and a clear strategy that adhere to the rights, including the right of resistance, and which fulfil the aspirations of the Palestinian people.

31. Hamas affirms that the role of the Palestinian Authority should be to serve the Palestinian people and safeguard their security, their rights and their national project.

32. Hamas stresses the necessity of maintaining the independence of Palestinian national decision-making. Outside forces should not be allowed to intervene. At the same time, Hamas affirms the responsibility of the Arabs and the Muslims and their duty and role in the liberation of Palestine from Zionist occupation.

33. Palestinian society is enriched by its prominent personalities, figures, dignitaries, civil society institutions, and youth, students, trade unionist and women’s groups who together work for the achievement of national goals and societal building, pursue resistance, and achieve liberation.

34. The role of Palestinian women is fundamental in the process of building the present and the future, just as it has always been in the process of making Palestinian history. It is a pivotal role in the project of resistance, liberation and building the political system.

The Arab and Islamic Ummah

35. Hamas believes that the Palestinian issue is the central cause for the Arab and Islamic Ummah.

36. Hamas believes in the unity of the Ummah with all its diverse constituents and is aware of the need to avoid anything that could fragment the Ummah and undermine its unity.

37. Hamas believes in cooperating with all states that support the rights of the Palestinian people. It opposes intervention in the internal affairs of any country. It also refuses to be drawn into disputes and conflicts that take place among different countries. Hamas adopts the policy of opening up to different states in the world, especially the Arab and Islamic states. It endeavours to establish balanced relations on the basis of combining the requirements of the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian people’s interests on the one hand with the interests of the Ummah, its renaissance and its security on the other.

The Humanitarian and international aspect

38. The Palestinian issue is one that has major humanitarian and international dimensions. Supporting and backing this cause is a humanitarian and civilisational task that is required by the prerequisites of truth, justice and common humanitarian values.

39. From a legal and humanitarian perspective, the liberation of Palestine is a legitimate activity, it is an act of self-defence, and it is the expression of the natural right of all peoples to self-determination.

40. In its relations with world nations and peoples, Hamas believes in the values of cooperation, justice, freedom and respect of the will of the people.

41. Hamas welcomes the stances of states, organisations and institutions that support the rights of the Palestinian people. It salutes the free peoples of the world who support the Palestinian cause. At the same time, it denounces the support granted by any party to the Zionist entity or the attempts to cover up its crimes and aggression against the Palestinians and calls for the prosecution of Zionist war criminals.

42. Hamas rejects the attempts to impose hegemony on the Arab and Islamic Ummah just as it rejects the attempts to impose hegemony on the rest of the world’s nations and peoples. Hamas also condemns all forms of colonialism, occupation, discrimination, oppression and aggression in the world.

[MyLittleStudPony]

I suspect Hamas may not be a fair reflection of the views of the majority of Palestinians or Muslims.

[Potter]

I suspect Hamas may not be a fair reflection of the views of the majority of Palestinians...

Why did they vote them into power then?

Have you got the stones to answer this question seeing as you've swerved my others?

[mangocrazy]

The state of Israel has basically conned the rest of the world into accepting that any criticism of the state of Israel equates to anti-semitism. This is clearly bollocks, but it's very widely accepted bollocks.

I don't believe Corbyn is anti-semitic either. He is a vocal and trenchant critic of Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians, but that does not make him anti-semitic.

I think you should read the Hamas Covenant posted below in its entirety. hth

Thankyou. In what way does that mass of verbiage have any bearing on what I wrote?

[Potter]

The police report states that there was insufficient evidence to decide if an offence had actually been committed, which means that the so called attack is basically hearsay. If you want to use hearsay as the basis for an accusation of a hate attack, that's your business.

But don't expect me to give it any credence.

You acknowledge the police report, good, now we agree I didn’t make it up.

Do you think the poppy seller is a liar and has made a false statement?

You willingly followed the narrative of the popular press in rushing to judgement while being aware that the police report was non-committal at best. So you basically propagated something that could neither be proved or disproved.

As for the poppy seller, he may have been lying or he may have been telling the truth, but on the basis of the police report we have no way of knowing.

They haven't found Jill Dando's killer.

So perhaps it never happened?

[Count Steer]

I just flicked the news on, to be fair the only problems so far have been from white supremacists, not entirely unexpected, they're probably sore from dragging their knuckles on the ground so much.

The Jew hater Corbyn is on the march now though, I think the only decent thing Starmer has done so far is cancel him and ensure that he's never near power again.

I'm not convinced Corbyn is antisemitic. I've just read David Baddiel's "Jews Don't Count" while on a island hideaway holiday with my younger, PAWG'y, fancy-high-price-lawyer girlfriend.

Never have believed it. He was running a party that contained rival factions in the JLM (Zionists) and JVL (who uphold the rights of Palestinians) to name but two. He was obvs more aligned with one than the other. The tag he was given was just a handy one to get rid of him. Not unhappy about getting rid of him, but anti- semite? Nah. He's just not a Zionist.

Be interesting to see how Starmer deals with these conflicts in his own party. So far, it looks like he's in the pocket of the JLM and various Labour groups aren't v happy.

How to burn a lead in the polls, lesson 1.

[MyLittleStudPony]

I suspect Hamas may not be a fair reflection of the views of the majority of Palestinians...

Why did they vote them into power then?

Have you got the stones to answer this question seeing as you've swerved my others?

Did they vote them in?

"Since June 2007, the Fatah-led government has exercised authority in Ramallah, West Bank, and has been recognized as the official government of the Palestinian Authority; while since Hamas took control in the Gaza Strip, it has exercised de facto control there, ousting Fatah PNA representatives in June 2007."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_government


I'm not aware of any questions I have avoided but I don't read all the posts on this forum.

[mangocrazy]

You willingly followed the narrative of the popular press in rushing to judgement while being aware that the police report was non-committal at best. So you basically propagated something that could neither be proved or disproved.

As for the poppy seller, he may have been lying or he may have been telling the truth, but on the basis of the police report we have no way of knowing.

They haven't found Jill Dando's killer.

So perhaps it never happened?

This is very poor stuff from you, Potter, and smacks of desperation.