In todays news...

[KungFooBob]

Firebomb Dresden, or maybe nuke Hiroshima. No wait, I'd shoot all those blue people on Pandora.

[irie]

Please specify what evidence would satisfy you that atrocities have been committed?

Please specify what amount of evidence you’d need to validate a retaliatory response that is going to murder thousands of innocent people?

Answering a question with a question speaks for itself.

[JackyJoll]

Please specify what evidence would satisfy you that atrocities have been committed?

Please specify what amount of evidence you’d need to validate a retaliatory response that is going to murder thousands of innocent people?

Answering a question with a question speaks for itself.

Who told you that?

[David]

Wasn't me was it?

[Docca]

Please specify what evidence would satisfy you that atrocities have been committed?

Please specify what amount of evidence you’d need to validate a retaliatory response that is going to murder thousands of innocent people?

Answering a question with a question speaks for itself.

It was a challenge to you that I was the one that needed evidence. I’m not, but if I was considering a response that will wipe out thousands of innocent people I’d want to ensure the response was justified and proportionate. You sound as though you don’t need these standards and would just windmill in - although that’s my own assumption because as usual, you never ever qualify your point.

Jacky- I’d want the proof to be irrefutable before considering my next steps. I think that’s reasonable and is what I’d expect of any country. You did say Israel though and I’m not sure they have a track record of being reasonable.

[JackyJoll]

Jacky- I’d want the proof to be irrefutable before considering my next steps. I think that’s reasonable and is what I’d expect of any country. You did say Israel though and I’m not sure they have a track record of being reasonable.

Irrefutable proof of what?

Are you seriously disputing that the Hamas guys entered Israel and killed and kidnapped people?

[ZRX61]

On the beheading issue:
Every US media channel (except Fox) has now walked back the claims & even trotted out a senior IDF wallah who stated there's no evidence it happened.

In other news, Burisma Biden is off the Israel tomorrow where he will no doubt claim that he knows how Israeli's feel because he once had a bottle rocket go awry which resulted in his dogs tennis ball being lightly singed.

[irie]

Jacky- I’d want the proof to be irrefutable before considering my next steps. I think that’s reasonable and is what I’d expect of any country. You did say Israel though and I’m not sure they have a track record of being reasonable.

Irrefutable proof of what?

Are you seriously disputing that the Hamas guys entered Israel and killed and kidnapped people?

This ^^^

[irie]

Please specify what amount of evidence you’d need to validate a retaliatory response that is going to murder thousands of innocent people?

Answering a question with a question speaks for itself.

It was a challenge to you that I was the one that needed evidence. I’m not, but if I was considering a response that will wipe out thousands of innocent people I’d want to ensure the response was justified and proportionate. You sound as though you don’t need these standards and would just windmill in - although that’s my own assumption because as usual, you never ever qualify your point.

Nice use of Ad Hominem.

[Yambo]

When we were attacked by the 'bloke almost next door' in what is now described as an 'asymmetric' fashion - ie the IRA - it does seem like the equivalent to what's currently going on would have been carpet bombing chunks of Belfast to root out the terrorists though. In the end it wasn't military action that evolved into an uneasy peace, it was mainly political and having the will to resolve the problem rather than exacerbate and sustain it. Something that seems lacking currently.

I'd suggest that the only reason Sinn Fein/IRA came to the negotiating table is that they were beaten 'militarily'. Of course, they could still make a nuisance of themselves ("They haven't gone away you know!") but were incapable of any real protracted campaign. However, there's no real comparison with what is going on in the Middle East.

I should have said it wasn't 'just military action' of course although it probably helped with IRA recruitment. I'm interested in why you think the 'Irish question' is so different though. An occupied land handed over to a minority with the disposessed getting external support etc. Why is there no real comparison?

You know the IRA were not/are not the Irish Army don't you?

The Irish have not vowed to wipe out the UK like Hamas has Israel. It could be argued that many of the IRA members living in Northern Ireland were British, paying UK tax and getting UK benefits. Gaza is basically a separate, self governing state, the IRA were hardly that. It could be argued that Gaza is a prison or even a concentration camp. West Belfast, Creggan and Bogside were hardly those things.

But of course, there are some similarities; the IRA were quite happy to kill innocent 'civilians' (many IRA members would like to tell you they were 'soldiers, fighting a war' until you remind them that if that were true, as soldiers they could be indicted for war crimes) but there are those sort of similarities in downtown Chicago.

[irie]

A picture is said to be worth a thousand words.

No crater in the car park, damage to the hospital limited to blown in windows and doors. Many people in the car park because it was considered to be a (relatively) safe haven.

My conclusion is that this damage cannot have been caused by an Israeli missile ...

Screenshot_20231018_113811_Gallery~2.jpg (258.12 KiB) Viewed 797 times

[Kneerly Down]

I imagine that the Palestinian police are waiting for the blue painted Stars of David to dry on the missile fragments before displaying them as proof it was an IDF strike.

[irie]

I imagine that the Palestinian police are waiting for the blue painted Stars of David to dry on the missile fragments before displaying them as proof it was an IDF strike.

More likely going to sites of previous Israeli missile strikes to gather missile fragments prior to displaying them as evidence of an Israeli strike on the hospital.

[Felix]

Since all the RTTL war correspondents are having a rest here is a nice little story what made me smile. He wont lose the car in a car park thats for sure

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... s-67135999

[Mr Moofo]

So what is Israel going to do in Northern Gaza after (presumably) civilians have evacuated to the south?

What do you think was Hamas’s game plan? Hamas deliberately caused maximum horror, such as live-streaming atrocities and cutting babies’ throats. Hamas knew Israel would react with angry force. Why would Hamas want to cause this (entirely predictable) Israeli reaction? Iranian involvement?

It’s desperately sad for the innocent civilians on all sides.

Has the baby-cutting been validated? Not that I’m after a video- but reports from the ground that were broadcast suggested this didn’t happen.

I’m finding it incredibly difficult to believe anything that’s broadcast during times of conflict anymore. The propaganda machines get cranked up to max and especially so if you’ve the budget to fluff them.

What is irrefutable is the downsizing of Palestine over several generations and a rather unhealthy view of our brothers from a darker mother by Israel.

I boycotted buying products from Israel years ago so you can take a wild guess where my sympathies land. The whole thing is fucked and the outpouring of public figures sharing unsubstantiated views of occurrences fuels a distorted rhetoric that will only serve to fan the flames of a hatred.

Sunak stated we stand with Israel. I don’t.

So you are supporting Hamas?

[Treadeager]

IMHO , the fact that you are not supporting Israel , does NOT mean you are supporting Hamas . With all the mis-information ( deliberate and otherwise ) circulating at the moment , I would suggest it would be foolish to go along 100% with any " party - line " . Sadly I doubt we'll ever get to know the whole truth behind the Hamas incursion , the hospital explosion or every other incident during the past 8,000 years of middle east history .

[Mr Moofo]

IMHO , the fact that you are not supporting Israel , does NOT mean you are supporting Hamas . With all the mis-information ( deliberate and otherwise ) circulating at the moment , I would suggest it would be foolish to go along 100% with any " party - line " . Sadly I doubt we'll ever get to know the whole truth behind the Hamas incursion , the hospital explosion or every other incident during the past 8,000 years of middle east history .

Obviously it doesn't - but it also doesn't mean you at not supporting Hamas either.
The propaganda machine is in full flow - the Americans and Russians have taught them well.
Regarding the hospital - you have to look at the motive . Israel had none - they knew what the ramifications would be. They also have an arsenal of sophisticated laser guided weapons , with pretty accurate targeting. Hamas have home made rockets with limited accuracy - and TBF if it is a home rocket that went wrong ( which appears to be the case) they they are not exactly going to 'fess up. Ideal time for a false flag story.
The invasion of Israel is unquestionable - there is video evidence of the actions and brutalisation of the people. I would question the beheading of babies as it all seems a little too symbolically biblical - but babies were murdered.
The Israeli state has carried out really questionable tactics - but Hamas provoking them all the time is going to result in actions. It's an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth part of the world. Like Docca I have boycotted Israeli products, I have no idea why they allow the illegal settlements in the West Bank, nor why the government support it.
The Palestinians are not entirely blameless - Hamas were voted in in 2006 as the legal government (with a mandate or aim to wipe Israel off the map).Since then there have been no elections with even the Arab world saying this is non tenable. I am also a little bemused by why the rest of the Arab world doesn't step up to help refugees etc ( Especially Saudi - who are rich and do nothing).

The current Western world's trendy left view that Palastinians = Good & Jewish/ Israel + bad is odd. 200 media luuvies send in a letter criticising Israel' war crimes against Gaza, and fail to mention the invasion and the atrocities that the Gaza residents committed on Israel.

[irie]

I've been in literally dozens of rocket and mortar attacks and the splash points aren't always obvious, sometimes they are, but sometimes you have to walk it through and piece things together to work out where it hit.
I don't know what type of "missile" it was supposed to be, but I'm sure they're not actually designed to make big holes in the ground. I've no expertise in missile design but using the Mk1 eyeball it seems to me that they're designed to splash rather than dig a big hole, so I might not expect a big movie style crater.

However, that aside, the scene there has clearly been attended to by emergency services, or others attending to it, and now it has people wandering around it chewing the fat, there are undamaged cars in amongst the damaged ones and all kinds of things introduced after the event, so there could be a splash point anywhere in there that is currently obscured, under a car, just off to the side, etc.

Basically, that picture tells you nothing.

This link to a Times of Israel article (interestingly published on 4th October 2023 just 3 days before Israel was attacked by Hamas) shows the sort of weaponry used by Islamic Jihad just a few days later.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-j ... e-in-gaza/

It is obvious that the weapons used by Islamic Jihab and others are deployed in a totally different way and are far more powerful than the ordnance you say you have personally experienced in your ME service.

[wheelnut]

So you are supporting Hamas?

Does it have to be one or the other?

Can we not condemn Hamas while hoping that Israel show some restraint?

[Mr Moofo]

So you are supporting Hamas?

Does it have to be one or the other?

Can we not condemn Hamas while hoping that Israel show some restraint?

I think that is the sensible option - I was just asking one poster who said " You can see whose side I am on".
I am on neither side - but have a lot of sympathy to the ever day Gazan.
But Hamas did not have to orchestrate the murders in the first place - they could have just had the status quo.
I have no sympathy for the radical "cool" left wing in Western Europe stirring up the hated against the jews - and essentially meddling in something they have little investment in. Also stirred up by Hamas / Iranian stooges
Hamas have been working up to something for a long time - they have used "their" people as pawns / cannon fodder
Israel has kept Gaza badly supplied, hungry and near destitute. But leaders of Gaza always have money for bombs and missiles.
Netanyahu has never been seen as a president to back down.
In summary innocent Israeli people were murdered, now innocent Palestinians are being murdered. And the alter quite possibly by their own "freedom fighters"
For work peace, you can only hope Israel does hold back - but it now will carry one with its mandate to obliterate Hamas - may not this year, or next year ...
And then there is the hand of Iran, Putin and perhaps China in all of this ...

I think we a looking at the precursor to WW3.
It would be good if everyone showed restraint and that negotiation became fashionable again