Honda e-clutch

[KungFooBob]

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/n ... lSoXVCKTjs

Clever stuff, well cleverer than the Rekluse centrifugal ones anyways.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Righto....so DCT was deployed in cars/bikes mostly to get rid of the slighty-clunky-bit-shit automated single clutch manuals. And here we are, going back to automated single clutches....

There must be some other advantage they're going for. Cheaper/simpler than DCT I guess.

[KungFooBob]

In Honda we trust.

[Skub]

I idly wonder why manufacturers continue to innovate with the ICE,when we are all going electric.

Or are we........

[Mr. Dazzle]

Becuase they're not ready with full EV yet but they're still getting their balls squeezed on emissions In a nutshell.

[KungFooBob]

I idly wonder why manufacturers continue to innovate with the ICE,when we are all going electric.

Or are we........

Europe might, but there's bigger markets where electrification is a long way off yet.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'd also bet this clutch is more aimed at, in a word, cheap bikes which are the bikes which really sell in a lot of other markets.

If you really want the best you'd have DCT, which is why they fit it to the big Viffers and the @ etc. Small, light, cheap bikes can tolerate/support a cheaper clunkier version of automation. A version which can also be retrofitted fairly easily to keep a model going.

[mboy]

If you really want the best you'd have DCT

"Best" is of course highly subjective... Whilst many Hondas have had a DCT option for some time now, BMW still doesn't offer it as an option on even its most premium tourers...

Righto....so DCT was deployed in cars/bikes mostly to get rid of the slighty-clunky-bit-shit automated single clutch manuals. And here we are, going back to automated single clutches....

There must be some other advantage they're going for. Cheaper/simpler than DCT I guess.

Motorbike gearboxes have always had an inherent design strength over car gearboxes in this respect though, by being sequential rather than H pattern. There was a hell of a lot being asked of an electronic clutch in an automated manual car gearbox, holding the clutch just the right amount of time for the robotics to correctly select a gear and then release the clutch with the right force every single time regardless of the situation, where arguably (certainly if a quickshifter/autoblipper is fitted too) all the e-clutch will have to deal with is the starting and stopping part of the process... The "easy bit" if you will.

I like the idea of it... Suspect for a lot of people who are perhaps DCT curious but don't want to fully commit to losing their clutch lever and gear pedal, but want a more relaxing ride in stop/start traffic, it will make a lot of sense.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Nah, car and bike manual gearboxes are very very similar inside. Pretty easy to change a car type gearbox to sequential, you can do it just in the selection mechanism. The fundamentals of the box itself are the same. Single clutch automated manual cars are sequential like a bike.

I suspect the reality of why bikes might be OK are way simpler. You're aiming at a much lower bar! You can forgive a lot more unrefinement in a 10k bike vs a 100k car.

[The Spin Doctor]

I idly wonder why manufacturers continue to innovate with the ICE,when we are all going electric.

Or are we........

Japan's putting a lot of eggs into the hydrogen basket... deal done with Aus to mine coal, process it then ship the H2 over... so even if they lose the UK / EU market, they'll keep selling at home.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Hydrogen fuel cell though primarily. If you're aiming for a hydrogen system you'd definitely prioritise fuel cells over ICE, what with being >2x as efficient, no noise, no NOX.

Bikes though...yeah OK, might lag behind cars and have hydrogen ICE a bit longer.

[The Spin Doctor]

Hydrogen fuel cell though primarily. If you're aiming for a hydrogen system you'd definitely prioritise fuel cells over ICE, what with being >2x as efficient, no noise, no NOX.

Bikes though...yeah OK, might lag behind cars and have hydrogen ICE a bit longer.

Not that I've seen - H2 ICE... Yamaha / Toyota investing heavily

Edit... almost forgot - from tomorrow's Elevenses...

"Suzuki chose the 2023 Japan Mobility Show as the place to unveil its first-ever hydrogen-powered two-wheeler. Calling it a test vehicle, not a concept, it's based around a Burgman 400 fitted with a 70 megapascal (MPa) hydrogen tank with an ICE adapted to the new fuel.

The company say exhibiting the vehicle will allow them to gather more data about current riders and how they want to ride motorcycles in the future."

[mboy]

Nah, car and bike manual gearboxes are very very similar inside. Pretty easy to change a car type gearbox to sequential, you can do it just in the selection mechanism. The fundamentals of the box itself are the same. Single clutch automated manual cars are sequential like a bike.

I suspect the reality of why bikes might be OK are way simpler. You're aiming at a much lower bar! You can forgive a lot more unrefinement in a 10k bike vs a 100k car.

I certainly can't claim to having seen the inner workings of very many automated manual car boxes, but understood that certainly some had highly complicated robotics units that had a hard time shifting gears as they weren't (as you would expect) sequential but still H pattern...

Either way, suspect you're right about the refinement... 2 (or 4) massive driven contact patches in a car vs 1 relatively small one on a bike will transmit a lot more NVH back through the car due to a mis-shift than it would on a bike too, so bikes already have a massive advantage in that respect. Car engines tend to have a lot bigger/heavier flywheels and a lot more inertia than bike engines too...

[Mr. Dazzle]

I suspected even more basic than that. Bikes are fucking awful for NVH and refinement It's basically an afterthought compared to a car. My car has electric windows which slow down at the last second so they close more quietly. Whereas on my bike the windscreen rattles.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Hydrogen fuel cell though primarily. If you're aiming for a hydrogen system you'd definitely prioritise fuel cells over ICE, what with being >2x as efficient, no noise, no NOX.

Bikes though...yeah OK, might lag behind cars and have hydrogen ICE a bit longer.

Not that I've seen - H2 ICE... Yamaha / Toyota investing heavily

They're not.

At least, not compared to the literally thousands of times more money being spent on EVs of various flavours. Or even compared to their own EV investment!

It's a keep your options open / appeal to the enthusiasts thing.

[Mr. Dazzle]

RE: Hydrogen though....I've just been informed by LinkedIn that this week is Hydrogen week!

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/a ... tober%2011.

[The Spin Doctor]

They're not.

At least, not compared to the literally thousands of times more money being spent on EVs of various flavours. Or even compared to their own EV investment!

It's a keep your options open / appeal to the enthusiasts thing.

Japan is investing in ruddy great tankers to cart the stuff from Australia.

I'm obviously reading different analyses to you.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/20/toy ... ccounter=1

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah for fuel cell electric cars primarily, not Hydogren ICE. Hydrogen cars which are EVs, not ones which go brrrm brrm. It even says so that in that article.

Bikes might hang on to ICE a tiny bit longer and you might have some high cost "show off" stuff with fancy Hydrogen V8s. Mostly not though.