HS2 - Bin it off or carry on regardless?

[KungFooBob]

Pre-covid I used to catch the Leeds to Sheffield train, four stops before Sheffield.

It was almost always two sprinter carriages.

It was massively overcrowded. Sometimes people at the stops after mine couldn't get on, it was a bit like the Japanese stations where people are pushed in by staff... only without the staff.

There was no way a conductor could traverse the train so most people didn't buy a ticket (I had a season ticket cos I'm honest like).

I struggle to understand why they couldn't just put an extra carriage on, it would have paid for itself in missed fairs!

[Yorick]

Pre-covid I used to catch the Leeds to Sheffield train, four stops before Sheffield.

It was almost always two sprinter carriages.

It was massively overcrowded. Sometimes people at the stops after mine couldn't get on, it was a bit like the Japanese stations where people are pushed in by staff... only without the staff.

There was no way a conductor could traverse the train so most people didn't buy a ticket (I had a season ticket cos I'm honest like).

I struggle to understand why they couldn't just put an extra carriage on, it would have paid for itself in missed fairs!

When I travelled Bingley to Leeds, 1 out of 3 was full when it got to us

[Mr Moofo]

The fact that it was started in London tells you all you need to know. If it just wasn't a "grand idea" they would have started in Manchester, completed the Leeds section, then the Manchester to Birmingham bit , then finally London.
London is well served by transport links and rail services, the North isn't.

As people used to say it would reduce the travel time from London to Manchester by 30 minutes - how about just getting an earlier train?

This should never have been about "That there Luhndun" - but about the rest of the country for a change

[Mr. Dazzle]

I only ever get the train if I'm going to London (and/or then Paris, see above). We always joke the train is great if you're going to London but shit for anything else...HS2 is doing little to change that impression!

It's always rammed. And obviously London local trains even more so.

I do wonder WTF is going on with fare prices. The turnover must be enormous. And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

[millemille]

I struggle to understand why they couldn't just put an extra carriage on, it would have paid for itself in missed fairs!

Because operators very rarely have spare trains sitting around doing nothing. If they're not in revenue service they're having defects repaired, modifications made, being cleaned, having scheduled running maintenance, heavy overhauls etc.

[millemille]

I do wonder WTF is going on with fare prices. The turnover must be enormous. And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

But EasyJet are flying through air which doesn't require regular maintenance and replacement because thousands of planes have flown through it and which, if not maintained correctly, causes the plane to crash. So EasyJet don't have to pay a pence per mile cost for the privilege of using the air through which they are flying.

The bargain airlines like EasyJet have also got a very canny business model when it comes to the cost of leasing their aircraft. Because they have such massive, repeating, buying power (you'll notice that each of the bargain airlines sticks to one manufacturer and, ideally, one type; so Ryanair themselves only operate Boeing 737-8's and Max's for example) with the aircraft manufacturers they can leverage deals with the manufacturers and the leasing companies where, in exchange for commiting to a full fleet replacement cycle every 5 (?) years they will be let off having to accrue money from their lease payments for the really expensive heavy maintenance because they will have got rid of the planes and replaced them with new just before that heavy maintenance is due.

The cost of that heavy maintenance then falls on the leasing company and the next airline to take on the ex budget airline aircraft.

A friend of mine was, until a few months ago, an engineer and PM for one of the leasing companies whose job was to take ex Easyjet and Ryan air aircraft that had been handed back to the leasing company and put them through the heavy maintenance and convert them (new paint job, new interiors etc.) for new operators. The new operators were getting a relatively new, in terms of age, aircraft that was fully maintained for a lot less than the cost of a new one...so it's win win.

[millemille]

The whole imbalance between Op Ex and income and the railway not being able to wipe its own face, so to speak, and needing significant state subsidy is a subject that has been interesting me for some time.

I've asked the question at a couple of industry events I've spoken at over the last few months "if the railway had to survive on income only, what would it look like?"

The answer I've had a few times is "Indian railways"....

[Mr. Dazzle]

"Indian railways"....

Supposedly bigger than the NHS and probably just as good

[Yorick]

And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

They have to fly the loss losers or they'll lose their time slots at the airport.

[millemille]

"Indian railways"....

Supposedly bigger than the NHS and probably just as good

To be clear, I mean passengers paying the same fares as they do now but getting Indian railway levels of service, safety etc.

Not sure how well that would go down on the 07.02 from Sevenoaks to Cannon Street, when the city types are having to ride on the roof?

[cheb]

I only ever get the train if I'm going to London (and/or then Paris, see above). We always joke the train is great if you're going to London but shit for anything else...HS2 is doing little to change that impression!

It's always rammed. And obviously London local trains even more so.

I do wonder WTF is going on with fare prices. The turnover must be enormous. And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

Want to travel from Edinburgh to London by EZtrain? You'll be boarding in Dunfirmline and disembarking in Stevenage.

I can't remember if it's Easyjet or Ryanair who advertise flights to Vienna, you don't even land in the same country.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I work near London Oxford Airport

[Mr. Dazzle]

And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

They have to fly the loss losers or they'll lose their time slots at the airport.

Yeah so if they're flying some losses and STILL making a profit over all on average that makes it even more remarkable.

BTW not really the point of the thread, but Airlines do pay a charge to fly over other countries, a price to land etc. I was more musing on how one big complicated transport infrastructure can be so different in cost to another one which appears reasonably similar.

Roads might be a fairer comparison but a) they're shit and b) its always bring-your-own-rolling-stock day. Plus anyone like to guess what the cost would be to make driving as safe as planes or trains?

[Yorick]

And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

They have to fly the loss losers or they'll lose their time slots at the airport.

Yeah so if they're flying some losses and STILL making a profit over all on average that makes it even more remarkable.

Pen flies to UK averaging about 35€ in school time.
About £400 -£500 school holidays.

[Horse]

This should never have been about "That there Luhndun"

It isn't

but about the rest of the country

It is.


There are plenty of posts in the thread detailing both these points.

[cheb]

And as above, Easy Jet can make a profit flying me on a £100m plane which burns tens of k in jet fuel for £39.

I'm sure there are some valid maths here, but from an outsiders POV it looks pretty messed up.

They have to fly the loss losers or they'll lose their time slots at the airport.

Yeah so if they're flying some losses and STILL making a profit over all on average that makes it even more remarkable.

BTW not really the point of the thread, but Airlines do pay a charge to fly over other countries, a price to land etc. I was more musing on how one big complicated transport infrastructure can be so different in cost to another one which appears reasonably similar.

Roads might be a fairer comparison but a) they're shit and b) its always bring-your-own-rolling-stock day. Plus anyone like to guess what the cost would be to make driving as safe as planes or trains?

Trivial in comparison to making any of those three as safe as traveling in a lift.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Trivial in comparison to making any of those three as safe as traveling in a lift.

Or having a nice sit down with a cup of tea, just do that.

[Dodgy69]

If it was a road with some busy bottle necks they'd build a bypass.

[Horse]

If it was a road with some busy bottle necks they'd build a bypass.

If the bottleneck is a few slower moving freight, or local stopping, trains, then you need very, very, long bypasses.

Which is the plan.

[wheelnut]

I had to laugh at the weekend - we drove back from Edinburgh along the A1 to be passed by many coaches with ‘rail replacement service’ on the front.

I bet they were pissed off paying £150 for a ticket when they may as well have jumped on the national express for a tenner.