Debanking

[Screwdriver]

If the government were to control all spending surely a stack of gold coins is pretty worthless?

Bit like how I can't spend old Triumph spares and bog roll tubes in Tesco

Gold is eternal. It is also finite. You can't make it so at the same time as cracking down on mere plebs from investing in a real commodity (not lit. valueless fiat money) they are of course buying it up themselves as quickly as possible. That and farmland/houses etc...

But no, you are almost exactly wrong> Gold is a much more useful asset for making a transaction in the post CBDC world. And it will only appreciate in value.

That's why people are "stacking" and that's why there is a push from the authorities to crack down on it.

[Mr. Dazzle]

How can it have value if the only way to buy stuff is via this hypothetical CBDC though?

I can't even buy stuff with gold right now. The only exception is using it to buy "normal" money.

[Cousin Jack]

How can it have value if the only way to buy stuff is via this hypothetical CBDC though?

I can't even buy stuff with gold right now. The only exception is using it to buy "normal" money.

That is just not true. I will deliver your week's grocery shipping for 5kg of gold. Just give me your Tesco list and the gold.

[Mr. Dazzle]

What you gonna do with the gold though? And who's gonna pay Tesco? If you wanna use my 5kg of gold (for something other than a door stop) you'll need to convert it to fiat money, or someone else does "downstream" from you.

Its all a bit abstract and it only has value because we all think it does. Pokemon cards and white dog turds are also scarce right?

If you imagine some kind of future where the government controls all purchases via an electronic currency then eventually someone somewhere needs to use that system. The chain must come to an end, so surely the gold ultimately is no use. Unless you want to have a completely separate economy, which is fine...but you can do that already and frankly there are probably more useful things than gold to stockpile for that eventuality.

[Screwdriver]

How can it have value if the only way to buy stuff is via this hypothetical CBDC though?

I can't even buy stuff with gold right now. The only exception is using it to buy "normal" money.

Because gold is the very definition of value. Oil has become the international commodity of trade by shoring up the dollar (which is the only reason the entire military industrial complex is obsessed with keeping oil tied to the dollar). Difficult for the individual to trade in barrels of oil tho’ so for reasons I have highlighted before, gold is the commodity of choice.

Compact, finite, cannot be faked (even China can’t fake it), universally accepted, easily aggregated or split into smaller values etc.

Plus it looks lovely!

If you’re struggling to trade with gold, bring it here and I’ll happily swap it for some highly collectible bikes. I’ll even nail them together for you.

[cheb]

Buying from Tesco? Are you mad? You'll receive your weekly food rations and watch your entertainment whilst staying at home.

Bread and circuses redux.

[Mr. Dazzle]

As above though, you and Jack only want me to give you gold cause its worth "real" money. You wouldn't accept 5kg of my original spoken word albums would you?

So you're not really getting away from the system in this case?

[Screwdriver]

What you gonna do with the gold though? And who's gonna pay Tesco?

I will use my CBDC account to buy my groceries. It will be rationed of course. One roll of bog paper per asshole, can’t top up the bike fully because I’ve used up my carbon credit limit. One steak per week yadda yadda. The writing is on the wall

No doubt there will be other less obvious mechanisms for state control. You might not be allowed to travel beyond a state authorised distance per month (you simply won’t be allowed to use your CBDC in certain locations) or at their whim if the WHO decree there is a new pandemic response you must adhere to.

Recipe for perfect totalitarianism control. Probably won’t affect to me, I don’t expect cash to be phased out for a decade or two (and I won’t be around) but who knows, Sunak is absolutely in bed with the WEF I just doubt if he’ll be able to swing it in time and no one is going to vote for him anyway.

CBDC is being set up now. No one has voted for it, it is being foisted upon us. Do you seriously think they’re doing it for the benefit of humanity?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah but its gonna be called "Britcoin" so it's got that going for it

[Cousin Jack]

In most parts of the world gold can be exchanged for paper money. £, dollars, rupees, (especially rupees), you name it. It is portable, and a 5kg lump is worth a sizeable fortune in a rich country, and a kings ransom in a poor one. Good luck with any government in banning that, many cultures have a long tradition of storing wealth in gold rather than in a bank.

[Mr. Dazzle]

But in this hypothetical scenario where paper money (either literal or figurative) doesn't exist....what then?

It's not a ban on gold which would make gold worthless, it's the complete replacement of traditional money with a centralised database style currency.

Unless you're talking about having a second economy, which governments have been trying to get rid of forever

[Cousin Jack]

The US/UK/EU may ban paper money. Good luck in achieving any meaningful ban in Asia or Africa.

Even in the UK the black economy is alive and well, anf 5kg of gold would buy a lot of stuff. Virtually any sort of stuff.

[Screwdriver]

Well, I don’t know about that. There’s BRICS to consider, China is in deep trouble and Russia too are in a deep decline.

Impossible to predict especially with the USA heading for a big (HUGE) depression.

We may live in interesting times….

[Count Steer]

Whenever I'm in the west, especially USA and UK, then it seems to me that pretty much everywhere is in decline, but when I'm over in the east then they're all building, and every time my Russian friend goes back to Russia on vacation he shows me new shopping malls and houses, they seem to be booming.

Not sure that shopping malls are the best indicator of progress in a civilised society.

Perhaps schools might be a better one.

Oh.

[Screwdriver]

Whenever I'm in the west, especially USA and UK, then it seems to me that pretty much everywhere is in decline, but when I'm over in the east then they're all building, and every time my Russian friend goes back to Russia on vacation he shows me new shopping malls and houses, they seem to be booming.

The narrative that the west are the chosen ones on the path of good/righteousness and being conditioned to look down on everyone else is really way off what I see as reality in the 21st century.

The headline figure of GDPR or nominal "success" of a capitalist economy is no measure for the success of the wider society. This is especially true with the accelerating trend for wealth concentration into the hands of the few global corporations and super rich. They're simply not reinvesting into their host country's infrastructures. They seem to be more concerned with how they can acquire more money and more power/authority for themselves. The mechanism for that appears to be squeezing as much money out of the individual citizen as they can possibly get away with.

Meanwhile, Russia with the largest land mass of any country is nominally in deep trouble due to "sanctions" but has tons of resources like fossil fuels. Plenty of farmland too, enough space everyone can find a home etc. Stick a roof over my head, keep me warm and feed me - I'm good.

Education is a key indicator and it seems to me "the West" has effectively gone a bit mental. I think there is a sickness within modern society and like "1984", more effort appears to be being made convincing people how well off they are than actually making anything better for the wider community.

[Count Steer]

Education is a key indicator and it seems to me "the West" has effectively gone a bit mental. I think there is a sickness within modern society and like "1984", more effort appears to be being made convincing people how well off they are than actually making anything better for the wider community.

Probably time to read 'Decline of the West' by Spengler. Growing cultures, develop into imperialistic civilisations* which ultimately collapse with democratic forms of government becoming plutocratic (as that's rule by the rich I'd add kleptocracy for many states/nations) and imperialism.

All pretty familiar and I'd say Russia (and probably China) fits the western model anyway in those ^^^ terms.

* Apparently the word comes from 'city' so maybe 'civilisation' is how we cope with living too closely together.

[Cousin Jack]

Crowding rats leads to a breakdown in many areas of normal rat behaviour. Including a significant increase in rat homosexuality.

[Count Steer]

Crowding rats leads to a breakdown in many areas of normal rat behaviour. Including a significant increase in rat homosexuality.

Which is a pretty logical ratty response to overpopulation n'est-ce pas? Get your mating urges satisfied without adding to the problem. Humans OTOH tend to breed less when crowded depending on education, income etc etc none of which seem to bother rats.

[JackyJoll]

Crowding rats leads to a breakdown in many areas of normal rat behaviour. Including a significant increase in rat homosexuality.

Which is a pretty logical ratty response to overpopulation n'est-ce pas? Get your mating urges satisfied without adding to the problem. Humans OTOH tend to breed less when crowded depending on education, income etc etc none of which seem to bother rats.

Humans in crowded, deprived conditions breed more.

[Count Steer]

Crowding rats leads to a breakdown in many areas of normal rat behaviour. Including a significant increase in rat homosexuality.

Which is a pretty logical ratty response to overpopulation n'est-ce pas? Get your mating urges satisfied without adding to the problem. Humans OTOH tend to breed less when crowded depending on education, income etc etc none of which seem to bother rats.

Humans in crowded, deprived conditions breed more.

Usually due to high infant mortality but there are other factors. Tokyo's pretty crowded and they don't have a population boom. As I said, 'depending on education, income etc'. You can add in religion, patriarchy and access to contraception if you like, none of which affect rats much.