CBT Booked

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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Hot_Air »

@Tigs Well done! Have fun and enjoy the journey :thumbup:

Once you’ve passed DAS, I’ll also add encouragement to keep learning (e.g. BikeSafe or a day with @The Spin Doctor).
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Horse »

Hot_Air wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:53 pm
Once you’ve passed DAS, I’ll also add encouragement to keep learning (e.g. a day with @The Spin Doctor).
^ that :) ;)
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Tigs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:11 pm Hello just a little update, I complete the CBT today.

The advice on here was really good - and I was a lot better at figure 8 and did ok on a u turn. My 'setting off' improved too.. so the stuff in the carpark was fine!
Well done! Glad you found it got easier.



I found the day long, and my body aches (I'm sure I was far to 'grippy and tense.. but 'relaxed comes with practice right?)
It IS a long day! It's knackering as the instructor, too ;)
The road stuff was more 'novice',. I don't look far enough ahead, and am still coordinating my left and right side, (I've always struggled with this).. I think I need to 'get out there' for shorter periods - where i'm fresher! The 'planning' part needs honing, so 'knowing which gear I should be in.. and what speed i should be going - and road position and the like..

But, I have the piece of paper to say i can go on the road, and that is the first step!
Yes, you'll need to practice. Easiest in short sessions, at least to start with. And try focusing on getting one thing right at a time rather than try to remember everything you did.
I plan to go out with a friend who is a biker - and was pondering getting an earpiece so we can communicate with each other..
Just make sure they don't talk too much. Random chit-chat is incredibly distracting, and even when someone is trying to help, if they have something that needs more than two or three words, it's always best done at a standstill.

And make sure you lead at least half of the time. One mistake a lot of new riders make is to go out with someone more experienced who says "follow me, I'll show you how it's done". The trouble is, now that other rider is making all the decisions. Demo rides are good - but they are only any use if you can compare with your own riding. You need to go first to learn to make your own decisions. If all you ever do is follow, you don't learn much. I see that all the time with women who ride with a more experienced partner.
Last edited by The Spin Doctor on Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Hot_Air »

Going out with an experienced mate is a two-edged sword: he or she could have good and bad habits alike. I’d still encourage @Tigs to go, because riding with a mate is sociable and fun. But a decent CBT or DAS instructor should be the main source of advice.

:thumbup: As well as BikeSafe, I’m going to give Spin’s website a plug: Survival Skills. It’s enjoyable and invaluable training. (Mod: I’ve no affiliation with Survival Skills, except as a highly satisfied customer.)

@Horse Rather than choosing between a day with Survival Skills or a BikeSafe workshop, I’d recommend doing both. Combined, it’s still a small investment for a big increase in riding skills. I’m incredibly glad I did both courses (and more afterwards).
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Re: CBT Booked

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Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:23 pm @Horse Rather than choosing between a day with Survival Skills or a BikeSafe workshop, I’d recommend doing both. Combined, it’s still a small investment for a big increase in riding skills. I’m incredibly glad I did both courses (and more afterwards).
Indeed, just not sure that Tigs is ready for that level of scrutiny and riding yet.

Plus, there might be contradictions between test and advanced level training.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Horse wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:21 pm
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:23 pm @Horse Rather than choosing between a day with Survival Skills or a BikeSafe workshop, I’d recommend doing both. Combined, it’s still a small investment for a big increase in riding skills. I’m incredibly glad I did both courses (and more afterwards).
Indeed, just not sure that Tigs is ready for that level of scrutiny and riding yet.

Plus, there might be contradictions between test and advanced level training.
I am a former CBT / DAS trainer so I do have a pretty good idea of where DAS stops and post-test starts (and have my new ONLINE COACHING sessions available to cover any topic of interest). :D (BikeSafe does deliver some good content but the road ride IMO does tend to set the bar at RoSPA level and tends to be a bit critical of riders who don't match up, but that's another matter altogether.)

TBH, there's not the gulf beteen DAS and post-test that many assume - DAS probably delivers 90% of what any rider will use every single day of the week for the rest of his / her riding career. The IAM have had to up their game partly in response to the better standard of training that DAS have been delivering since 1997 compared with the old test on 125s.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Horse »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:31 pm
Horse wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:21 pm
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:23 pm @Horse Rather than choosing between a day with Survival Skills or a BikeSafe workshop, I’d recommend doing both. Combined, it’s still a small investment for a big increase in riding skills. I’m incredibly glad I did both courses (and more afterwards).
Indeed, just not sure that Tigs is ready for that level of scrutiny and riding yet.

Plus, there might be contradictions between test and advanced level training.
I am a former CBT / DAS trainer so I do have a pretty good idea of where DAS stops and post-test starts (and have my new ONLINE COACHING sessions available to cover any topic of interest). :D (BikeSafe does deliver some good content but the road ride IMO does tend to set the bar at RoSPA level and tends to be a bit critical of riders who don't match up, but that's another matter altogether.)
I know that ;)

Simply emphasising that (as in my earlier post HA had quoted) that Tiggs should talk to you :)
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Re: CBT Booked

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The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:31 pmI am a former CBT / DAS trainer so I do have a pretty good idea of where DAS stops and post-test starts (and have my new ONLINE COACHING sessions available to cover any topic of interest). :D
I know, and I agree with @Horse that a Survival Skills course would be ideal soon after DAS (perhaps the best post-DAS training) :thumbup:

Nonetheless, I remain convinced that BikeSafe is also excellent to do in Year 1 of biking (as I did). In the pre-workshop questionnaire, I was asked about my riding experience, resulting in me being paired up appropriately. It was like a pre-advanced intro. And I had an enjoyable and rewarding day. But how much variation is there in how different police forces run BikeSafe workshops?
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Re: CBT Booked

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Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:21 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:31 pmI am a former CBT / DAS trainer so I do have a pretty good idea of where DAS stops and post-test starts (and have my new ONLINE COACHING sessions available to cover any topic of interest). :D
I know, and I agree with @Horse that a Survival Skills course would be ideal soon after DAS (perhaps the best post-DAS training) :thumbup:

Nonetheless, I remain convinced that BikeSafe is also excellent to do in Year 1 of biking (as I did). In the pre-workshop questionnaire, I was asked about my riding experience, resulting in me being paired up appropriately. It was like a pre-advanced intro. And I had an enjoyable and rewarding day. But how much variation is there in how different police forces run BikeSafe workshops?
A few years back they were working from a common syllabus, that was introduced to sort out worries that there were mixed messages across different BikeSafe teams - I have a copy somewhere.

Whether they still have that commonality - that I don't know. Might be tough given the fact that the not all BikeSafe courses are now exclusively delivered by the police.

The Met BikeSafe which I am familiar with does a good job of being a kind of 'post-DAS' session in the theory bit, but last time out I got paired with a relatively inexperienced rider and I felt that the RoSPA-graded feedback was a bit inappropriate for him and that the speed that I was capable of riding at was taking him to the edge of his comfort zone.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Bigyin »

Tigs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:11 pm Hello just a little update, I complete the CBT today.

The advice on here was really good - and I was a lot better at figure 8 and did ok on a u turn. My 'setting off' improved too.. so the stuff in the carpark was fine!

I found the day long, and my body aches (I'm sure I was far to 'grippy and tense.. but 'relaxed comes with practice right?)

The road stuff was more 'novice',. I don't look far enough ahead, and am still coordinating my left and right side, (I've always struggled with this).. I think I need to 'get out there' for shorter periods - where i'm fresher! The 'planning' part needs honing, so 'knowing which gear I should be in.. and what speed i should be going - and road position and the like..

But, I have the piece of paper to say i can go on the road, and that is the first step! I plan to go out with a friend who is a biker - and was pondering getting an earpiece so we can communicate with each other..
Well done Tigs and now the learning starts again :thumbup:

Hope you had better weather than here as i have spent the last 3 days in on/off torrential rain doing CBT's and i am looking forward to a couple of days off as it is knackering as you said and long days. Saturday was 8am start and when we finished due to the mixed level of the 4 students including 2 16 year olds never been on the road and 2 20 year olds on geared 125's who had never ridden anything before. Lets just say we were lucky it wasnt in 2 weeks time as it was starting to get dark when we came back in from the road ride.

You have been taught by people who know what they are doing...... be careful as a mate could teach you his bad habits, bad lines and bad decisions. By all means ride with a friend but getting him to advise you while riding i would suggest is a bad idea and very distracting
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Re: CBT Booked

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@The Spin Doctor It sounds like they got the pairing wrong when they put you with an inexperienced rider. I guess it shouldn’t, but can, happen.

I never felt like I was being graded against RoSPA advanced criteria. (It would be crazy since BikeSafe is “pre-advanced” to bridge the gap between DAS and advanced.) Perhaps your police observer was judging you against a higher level because of your experience?
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Re: CBT Booked

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Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:56 pm @The Spin Doctor It sounds like they got the pairing wrong when they put you with an inexperienced rider. I guess it shouldn’t, but can, happen.

I never felt like I was being graded against RoSPA advanced criteria. (It would be crazy since BikeSafe is “pre-advanced” to bridge the gap between DAS and advanced.) Perhaps your police observer was judging you against a higher level because of your experience?
A couple of years ago i spoke to one of the traffic lads i know about Bikesafe as i was interested in going along and was told it would probably be a waste of my time as it was aimed at a lower level of riding than mine (based on my advanced car training and applying similar principles but on 2 wheels)

I was told it was aimed at post DAS and "mid life return to bikes" to try and get people used to correct lines and pre planning while riding thus smoothing things out instead of rushing into to corners on bikes with more power than they are used to either through stepping up having passed a test or buying a 180 bhp bike when they rode a CX500 25 years ago

I am still interested in going purely out of curiosity though ;)
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Re: CBT Booked

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Hot_Air wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:56 pm @The Spin Doctor It sounds like they got the pairing wrong when they put you with an inexperienced rider. I guess it shouldn’t, but can, happen.
There were reasons which I won't go into.

I never felt like I was being graded against RoSPA advanced criteria. (It would be crazy since BikeSafe is “pre-advanced” to bridge the gap between DAS and advanced.) Perhaps your police observer was judging you against a higher level because of your experience?
There were several references made to "what a RoSPA rider would do".

To be honest, you shouldn't judge anyone based on experience. You base feedback on what you see, not what you expect to see.

This is the problem with benchmarking against a test standard, as opposed to a genuinely client-centred approach. Even if it's dressed constructively (ie - what to do to improve) in essence you are still getting told where you fall short of the standard. I'm always told that my progress falls short of advanced standard... I always respond that I'm riding to enjoy myself, not to arrive 5 minutes earlier or put on a show by riding how I can but how I don't, and then ask if there were any errors that needed addressing?

"No, but..."

I'm used to it now.
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Re: CBT Booked

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Bigyin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:14 pm
A couple of years ago i spoke to one of the traffic lads i know about Bikesafe as i was interested in going along and was told it would probably be a waste of my time as it was aimed at a lower level of riding than mine (based on my advanced car training and applying similar principles but on 2 wheels)

I was told it was aimed at post DAS and "mid life return to bikes" to try and get people used to correct lines and pre planning while riding thus smoothing things out instead of rushing into to corners on bikes with more power than they are used to either through stepping up having passed a test or buying a 180 bhp bike when they rode a CX500 25 years ago

I am still interested in going purely out of curiosity though ;)
It's definitely worth it. I've picked up a few things...

...and I was rather gratified to see the Met team have now introduced some elements from my Science Of Being Seen presentation which I created for BikeSafe in 2012, including pointing out that pink is a better hi-vis colour against rural foliage than Saturn yellow.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by The Spin Doctor »

I don't know if the take-up of this course has improved this summer, with many trainers struggling to get test slots:

https://www.2wheelslondon.com/training/ ... le-skills/

It's free in London.
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Re: CBT Booked

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The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:19 pm It's definitely worth it. I've picked up a few things...

...and I was rather gratified to see the Met team have now introduced some elements from my Science Of Being Seen presentation which I created for BikeSafe in 2012, including pointing out that pink is a better hi-vis colour against rural foliage than Saturn yellow.
It might be better but if you convince the biking world that pink is a better choice and they go for it then i will nominate you for Prime Minister as that would be a miracle :mrgreen:
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Re: CBT Booked

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Bigyin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:36 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:19 pm It's definitely worth it. I've picked up a few things...

...and I was rather gratified to see the Met team have now introduced some elements from my Science Of Being Seen presentation which I created for BikeSafe in 2012, including pointing out that pink is a better hi-vis colour against rural foliage than Saturn yellow.
It might be better but if you convince the biking world that pink is a better choice and they go for it then i will nominate you for Prime Minister as that would be a miracle :mrgreen:
There's a hitch in that to be classified as PPE, gear has to meet the requirements of BS EN 200471.

And that only allows fluoro red, orange or yellow.

That's for 'professional' users.
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Re: CBT Booked

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Bigyin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:36 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:19 pm It's definitely worth it. I've picked up a few things...

...and I was rather gratified to see the Met team have now introduced some elements from my Science Of Being Seen presentation which I created for BikeSafe in 2012, including pointing out that pink is a better hi-vis colour against rural foliage than Saturn yellow.
It might be better but if you convince the biking world that pink is a better choice and they go for it then i will nominate you for Prime Minister as that would be a miracle :mrgreen:
Don't worry - that's a job I really don't want ;)

Interestingly cyclists have twigged... there are a lot of riders (M & F) wearing pink... or Man Salmon as the Kiwis call it.
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Re: CBT Booked

Post by Hot_Air »

Yep, many cyclists have worn pink for years - probably because of the influence of continental riders and brands. And the trend among well-heeled cyclists to wear British brand Rapha (signature colour pink) added more Lycra with a splash of pink.
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Re: CBT Booked

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The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:04 pmwearing pink... or Man Salmon as the Kiwis call it.
When I was working in NZ I wore a pink rugby shirt to a barbie. One guy sidled up, beer in hand.

"Err, mate" Yes? "Err yer wirrin pink?" Yup :) Apparently only one true colourway out there for rugby shirts: black.
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