Trail braking, or braking in corners.

[slowhare]

when i do stoppies it’s almost over the handlebars, and that’s front only, obviously, you couldn’t do a stoppie using the rear. When i use rear only the weight transfer always appears to move backwards, i must be missing something here.

trail-braking as i understood it: using rear only through the apex and into the curve while the throttle is still engaged.

actual trail-braking: using (mainly the front) brake into the apex carrying speed and braking late, then opening the throttle as the curve opens. Late braking, essentially.

[slowhare]

I thought it was continued application of the rear ... while keeping the throttle engaged.

Balancing throttle, clutch and rear brake is useful for slow control

Yes, i suggested this while referring to the cone test and tight manoeuvres. Thanks for confirming.

[Trinity765]

I thought the "trail" in trail braking is because you trail off of the brakes. You brake hard using the front going into a corner but rather than letting go suddenly and the front springing back up you let go gently - trailing off of the brakes.

The above is what I do if I am "having fun" and I feel much more in control when I do it. I also use a tiny bit if back brake as it seems to keep the whole bike a little more settled.

[Screwdriver]

I always assumed 'trail' braking was done with the front.

Apparently a dab of the rear on entry can help settle the bike, but I've never done it deliberately, however I have had bikes with linked brakes that do feel a bit more 'stable' on the brakes tipping in.

At some stage you're going to have to stop braking and you don't just release the front brake or the sudden release will upset the stability of the bike as the forks decompress and pop up like a pogo stick. So you have to feather off the front brake and if you're going to do that, you either do it before you tip in to the bend (and just let everyone fly past you) or you feather off the front as you enter the bend. Yorick is correct regarding the effect on the steering geometry and it's not a subtle effect either, the steeper rake angle as the forks compress, really quickens up the steering.

Clearly the latter is the preferred method, brake deep into the corner and feather off the brakes until you get beck on the power. Smoothest is fastest but it is also arguably safest, even on the road. On the road, you won't be using all of the ultimate performance so trail braking will leave you some wiggle room if something unexpected occurs and you need to either tighten your line (brake a little harder) or widen your line (release the brake sooner). Also if you need to stand the bike up mid bend in an emergency, the forks are still slightly compressed (because you're still trail braking) and once stood up you can get on them harder without excessive dive being an issue.

Since I was brought up on two strokes, I use the rear brake a LOT. All the time while braking and a fair bit while accelerating (!). We used to do this on strokers because they're so damned peaky, a slight wheelspin as you power out of a bend can instantly give you a LOT more horsepower as the engine is right at the start of the power band. The upshot is highsides galore since a tiny wheelspin picks up the revs, the engine immediately delivers more power to the rear giving you more wheelspin etc.

Dragging the rear brake can help prevent this runaway effect since the initial onset of wheelspin might just be a slide or a bump and not because you have too much throttle on. If you have power induced wheelspin, it won't help much but the trick with two strokes is to have the engine right the start of that precarious ramp of the power band with just enough throttle to keep it there. It's a real balancing act, immensely satisfying when you get it right, painful when you get it wrong. It's why so many of the best motorcyclists in the world could be seen trowing themselves into the air every weekend. Traction control has levelled that playing field but Rossi was an absolute master of the technique. The rear brake effectively was your traction control.

I still use it to this day on the road where you often need to accelerate while pulling away round a corner for example. Especially at junctions. Even on a plodding old FireBlade (or my trust Fazer), a sharp getaway while turning can lead to a similar "runaway" wheelspin. I drag the rear brake, just in case.

I never did get to the level where I could use the rear brake when wheelieing, I'd always end up trying to change gear with the brake lever! Too late to teach an old dog new tricks but it's easy enough to get on it to stop yourself flipping, just looks a bit dumb if you're half way up Chelsea bridge and you have to bail out.

Another thing about rear brakes is that it does stabilise the bike mid bend since you are effectively adding a little bit of extra damping to the rear suspension. It is way too complex a geometry to try and explain since it is acting via the top and bottom chain run (!) relative to the engine braking or acceleration but this post is way too long and I should stop before this gets out of hand...

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I thought the "trail" in trail braking is because you trail off of the brakes. You brake hard using the front going into a corner but rather than letting go suddenly and the front springing back up you let go gently - trailing off of the brakes.

The above is what I do if I am "having fun" and I feel much more in control when I do it. I also use a tiny bit if back brake as it seems to keep the whole bike a little more settled.

Correct, the releasing the brakes gently is the trail bit, I think just letting go of the lever while braking lent over would cause you to crash as the front end would suddenly unload and spring up, though I suppose a huge amount of rebound damping could prevent this.

Looking at what I've just typed have I just had a Eureka moment, you could have electronic controlled damping that increased rebound damping when you released the front brake to prevent the forks springing up after braking.

[Yorick]

when i do stoppies it’s almost over the handlebars, and that’s front only, obviously, you couldn’t do a stoppie using the rear. When i use rear only the weight transfer always appears to move backwards, i must be missing something here.

trail-braking as i understood it: using rear only through the apex and into the curve while the throttle is still engaged.

No. That's backing it in

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

when i do stoppies it’s almost over the handlebars, and that’s front only, obviously, you couldn’t do a stoppie using the rear. When i use rear only the weight transfer always appears to move backwards, i must be missing something here.

trail-braking as i understood it: using rear only through the apex and into the curve while the throttle is still engaged.

No. That's backing it in

I can do that, or I could 20 years ago when I was daft enough to own a supermoto.

[KungFooBob]

I tried backing my DR250 into a 90 degree corner on my commute to work.

I needed a new indicator lens and put a hole in my HG over trous.

[Yorick]

I tried backing my DR250 into a 90 degree corner on my commute to work.

I needed a new indicator lens and put a hole in my HG over trous.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I tried backing my DR250 into a 90 degree corner on my commute to work.

I needed a new indicator lens and put a hole in my HG over trous.

There's a road in Crete that comes down a mountainside through a load of hairpin bends, the tarmac is shite, I backed a hired DR200 into every one of the bends thanks to a gripless Goldenboy rear tyre, there was so little grip the back wheel would lose traction by just slamming the throttle shut and kicking it down a gear, it was so much fun I rode back up the road and did it again.

[Horse]

obviously, you couldn’t do a stoppie using the rear. When i use rear only the weight transfer always appears to move backwards, i must be missing something here.

You could be feeling the rear 'squat'.

[slowhare]

Correct, the releasing the brakes gently is the trail bit, I think just letting go of the lever while braking lent over would cause you to crash as the front end would suddenly unload and spring up, though I suppose a huge amount of rebound damping could prevent this.

Thank you, I’m all the wiser for it. Time to delete the YT thread.

[slowhare]

You could be feeling the rear 'squat'.

That would be it, yes, thank you.

[slowhare]

I always assumed 'trail' braking was done with the front.

Apparently a dab of the rear on entry can help settle the bike, but I've never done it deliberately, however I have had bikes with linked brakes that do feel a bit more 'stable' on the brakes tipping in.

At some stage you're going to have to stop braking and you don't just release the front brake or the sudden release will upset the stability of the bike as the forks decompress and pop up like a pogo stick. So you have to feather off the front brake and if you're going to do that, you either do it before you tip in to the bend (and just let everyone fly past you) or you feather off the front as you enter the bend. Yorick is correct regarding the effect on the steering geometry and it's not a subtle effect either, the steeper rake angle as the forks compress, really quickens up the steering.

Clearly the latter is the preferred method, brake deep into the corner and feather off the brakes until you get beck on the power. Smoothest is fastest but it is also arguably safest, even on the road. On the road, you won't be using all of the ultimate performance so trail braking will leave you some wiggle room if something unexpected occurs and you need to either tighten your line (brake a little harder) or widen your line (release the brake sooner). Also if you need to stand the bike up mid bend in an emergency, the forks are still slightly compressed (because you're still trail braking) and once stood up you can get on them harder without excessive dive being an issue.

Since I was brought up on two strokes, I use the rear brake a LOT. All the time while braking and a fair bit while accelerating (!). We used to do this on strokers because they're so damned peaky, a slight wheelspin as you power out of a bend can instantly give you a LOT more horsepower as the engine is right at the start of the power band. The upshot is highsides galore since a tiny wheelspin picks up the revs, the engine immediately delivers more power to the rear giving you more wheelspin etc.

Dragging the rear brake can help prevent this runaway effect since the initial onset of wheelspin might just be a slide or a bump and not because you have too much throttle on. If you have power induced wheelspin, it won't help much but the trick with two strokes is to have the engine right the start of that precarious ramp of the power band with just enough throttle to keep it there. It's a real balancing act, immensely satisfying when you get it right, painful when you get it wrong. It's why so many of the best motorcyclists in the world could be seen trowing themselves into the air every weekend. Traction control has levelled that playing field but Rossi was an absolute master of the technique. The rear brake effectively was your traction control.

I still use it to this day on the road where you often need to accelerate while pulling away round a corner for example. Especially at junctions. Even on a plodding old FireBlade (or my trust Fazer), a sharp getaway while turning can lead to a similar "runaway" wheelspin. I drag the rear brake, just in case.

I never did get to the level where I could use the rear brake when wheelieing, I'd always end up trying to change gear with the brake lever! Too late to teach an old dog new tricks but it's easy enough to get on it to stop yourself flipping, just looks a bit dumb if you're half way up Chelsea bridge and you have to bail out.

Another thing about rear brakes is that it does stabilise the bike mid bend since you are effectively adding a little bit of extra damping to the rear suspension. It is way too complex a geometry to try and explain since it is acting via the top and bottom chain run (!) relative to the engine braking or acceleration but this post is way too long and I should stop before this gets out of hand...

Thanks too, very informative.

[Horse]

@slowhare

Well done. I think that, not only have several of the posters on this thread not been in this section of the board before, previously they've actually made a conscious effort not to.

[Yorick]

I tried backing my DR250 into a 90 degree corner on my commute to work.

I needed a new indicator lens and put a hole in my HG over trous.

There's a road in Crete that comes down a mountainside through a load of hairpin bends, the tarmac is shite, I backed a hired DR200 into every one of the bends thanks to a gripless Goldenboy rear tyre, there was so little grip the back wheel would lose traction by just slamming the throttle shut and kicking it down a gear, it was so much fun I rode back up the road and did it again.

[Yorick]

I thought the "trail" in trail braking is because you trail off of the brakes. You brake hard using the front going into a corner but rather than letting go suddenly and the front springing back up you let go gently - trailing off of the brakes.

The above is what I do if I am "having fun" and I feel much more in control when I do it. I also use a tiny bit if back brake as it seems to keep the whole bike a little more settled.

Yup. You got it. It's hard to explain to teach someone, but you've got it sussed.

[Yorick]

I thought the "trail" in trail braking is because you trail off of the brakes. You brake hard using the front going into a corner but rather than letting go suddenly and the front springing back up you let go gently - trailing off of the brakes.

The above is what I do if I am "having fun" and I feel much more in control when I do it. I also use a tiny bit if back brake as it seems to keep the whole bike a little more settled.

Correct, the releasing the brakes gently is the trail bit, I think just letting go of the lever while braking lent over would cause you to crash as the front end would suddenly unload and spring up, though I suppose a huge amount of rebound damping could prevent this.

Looking at what I've just typed have I just had a Eureka moment, you could have electronic controlled damping that increased rebound damping when you released the front brake to prevent the forks springing up after braking.

That last sentence fuddled my brain

[Bigyin]

Are new entrants actively taught trail braking?

I doubt it.

@Bigyin to clarify

No it’s not taught as it isn’t a basic technique so the normal teaching is to brake in a straight line while upright on the approach to the corner to a above the required speed and then releasing the brake and entering the corner

That’s enough for most new riders to deal with

[Screwdriver]

Looking at what I've just typed have I just had a Eureka moment, you could have electronic controlled damping that increased rebound damping when you released the front brake to prevent the forks springing up after braking.

You could call it "autocrash".

One assumes the "advantage" would be you could just let go of the front brake without having to feather it off. Great but where is the advantage in that? You now have a bike which is coasting, you're off the main brakes, mid bend but the fork remains compressed via the autocrash system. All of the weight transfer you had pushing the front tyre into the road is suddenly unloaded and instantly shared with the rear.

The bike should attain a neutral suspension configuration but is prevented from doing so. In that exact circumstance where you have dumped the front brake mid bend, you actually need the pressure from the forks pogoing back up to keep the front end loaded. It's not an ideal circumstance in the first place, you should always aim to be as smooth as possible especially mid bend!

Ordinarily you dive into a bend on the front and drive out from the apex riding the rear. But using autocrash, for a moment (before you crash) you're in unfamiliar territory. You didn't brake hard all the way into the apex (unless you are attempting a fully manual crash) so you're off the front brake before the apex and before you're ready to transfer drive to the rear. Does the autocrash system know where the apex is? I am trying to imagine what would happen if your suspension retained too much rebound. I **think** you'd probably end up with all the grip at the rear so the front would simply wash out.

Aha, you say but you can still feather off the brake (negating the entire reason for having an autocrash feature) but at what point does autocrash kick in and interfere with the front suspension by increasing the rebound damping and preventing your bike from reaching a stable equilibrium? What happens if you even touch the throttle while the front end is still stiff with rebound? Weight transfer to the rear is what happens. The front end will tuck like you ran over a patch of oil.

In any case, in racing the last thing you want is to coast. There are only three dynamic modes when racing. You are either:

A. Accelerating
or
B. Braking
or
C. Losing

It is interesting to try and imagine how such a system would work but I'd rather someone else tried it first. I'm out.