In todays news...

[gremlin]

And another example was the 'mad kid' who couldn't sit still, kept getting into trouble. Now? Probably ADHD.

I bet the schools regret dumping their stock of straight jackets now, eh!

[Horse]

And another example was the 'mad kid' who couldn't sit still, kept getting into trouble. Now? Probably ADHD.

I bet the schools regret dumping their stock of straight jackets now, eh!

No, not at all.

There's Ritalin now

Methylphenidate is used to treat children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). It helps with hyperactivity and impulsive behaviour, and allows them to concentrate better.

Edit: and don't forget that teachers have had to adapt too, to all these changes. No longer able to use punishment and violence to improve learning When I were a lad, a well-aimed wooden board rubber was recognised as an effective enhancement to lesson planning

[MyLittleStudPony]

Those that are interested have historically been discouraged. Or at the minimum, not encouraged.

Back what when I went through the useless career guidance guff the trades were only suggested for those were not expected to do very well academically, male or female.

And they remain a sound option - for those who aren't too bright.

[KungFooBob]

Those that are interested have historically been discouraged. Or at the minimum, not encouraged.

Back what when I went through the useless career guidance guff the trades were only suggested for those were not expected to do very well academically, male or female.

And they remain a sound option - for those who aren't too bright.

And like jet skis.

[v8-powered]

Edit: and don't forget that teachers have had to adapt too, to all these changes. No longer able to use punishment and violence to improve learning When I were a lad, a well-aimed wooden board rubber was recognised as an effective enhancement to lesson planning

Had a few of those lobbed at me over the years. Also the chalk dust over my school jumper was a giveaway to parents that Id been up to no good, so a double bollocking

[Horse]

Edit: and don't forget that teachers have had to adapt too, to all these changes. No longer able to use punishment and violence to improve learning When I were a lad, a well-aimed wooden board rubber was recognised as an effective enhancement to lesson planning

Had a few of those lobbed at me over the years. Also the chalk dust over my school jumper was a giveaway to parents that Id been up to no good, so a double bollocking

I've not thought of it before, do you think they practiced? Some sort of 'teacher sports day' competition?

[Noggin]

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school and told off by my mother (although she also discouraged me from a girl career because 'she' didn't like it!! )

Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm. Similar to being constantly told that "that (BB, Blade,TLs etc) is a bit big for a girl isn't it?" but random strangers!!

Definitely no laws prohibiting it but how much encouragement is given at an age where the choices are made? (I'd be happy to find out things have changed, but I'm not that sure they have!)

You are assuming all men can do exactly what they want. They all want to be plumbers, firemen, deep sea divers builders etc.

I Absolutely bloody didn't assume that!! Where did you read that assumption?? I'm actually a little offended that anyone would think I am that narrow minded. The conversation was about women, I am one and so I was responding to that particular topic

I'm not as stupid as I obviously seem on here! I am fully aware that not everyone can be what they want to be - I also wanted to be a jockey but I was too tall at about 11 years old!!! (Didn't know then that jump jockeys are taller ). I specifically mentioned that if a boy had shown interest in a 'non boy' career maybe he had the same responses as I and many many women of my generation did (and generations since!). I was at school leaving age 35+ years ago, I'm just hoping things have changed. With no kids of my own, I have no direct contact with schools so can't say

So if your job was to encourage people to find a role, would you tell each and every one of them the same thing? Yes, you can become an astronaut, professional footballer, ballerina, popstar, <whatever>. I would say nine times out of ten you'd be wrong; doing your client a disservice but that's not even close. You'd be wrong and giving those people false hope at a rate ten million times to 1.

Boys, like girls, take whatever they can get and it's not easy for either. The grass is not always greener.

I rarely tell anyone the same thing if asked for advice - I find out about the person and the reason for the question and then I respond. Everyone is different as you are sort of suggesting. WTF thinks advising all children they can be what they want (especially with your list) is a good way to do things??

You encourage children based on what they can do and what they want to do then help them see what is possible and achievable (if they are different - which they quite often will be.



As for the grass being greener.

Again, I'm not that stupid. Equally, for quite a of the things I've wanted to do in life (did do and tried or was put off from doing) things would have been way simpler (on the face of it) had I been male. Work and hobbies. The grass probably isn't greener overall, but sometimes it does feel like it from my point of view - and I'm sure there are males around (maybe not on here) that would say exactly the same thing

[Mussels]

As for the grass being greener.

Again, I'm not that stupid. Equally, for quite a of the things I've wanted to do in life (did do and tried or was put off from doing) things would have been way simpler (on the face of it) had I been male. Work and hobbies. The grass probably isn't greener overall, but sometimes it does feel like it from my point of view - and I'm sure there are males around (maybe not on here) that would say exactly the same thing

I'm only slightly younger than you and I remember women getting preferential treatment in several areas because male dominated organisations had to be seen to do something, you also had to look good on PR posters so it seemed to cause more resentment among women who didn't get the boost.
As for career advice I got none*, my school didn't allow any computer subjects as they weren't good for getting into uni even though it was supposedly a boy's tech.

* Slight lie as I went to an open day for mental health nurses, they really wanted men to join. I was impressed but wanted a tech job.

[Noggin]

As for the grass being greener.

Again, I'm not that stupid. Equally, for quite a of the things I've wanted to do in life (did do and tried or was put off from doing) things would have been way simpler (on the face of it) had I been male. Work and hobbies. The grass probably isn't greener overall, but sometimes it does feel like it from my point of view - and I'm sure there are males around (maybe not on here) that would say exactly the same thing

I'm only slightly younger than you and I remember women getting preferential treatment in several areas because male dominated organisations had to be seen to do something, you also had to look good on PR posters so it seemed to cause more resentment among women who didn't get the boost.
As for career advice I got none*, my school didn't allow any computer subjects as they weren't good for getting into uni even though it was supposedly a boy's tech.

* Slight lie as I went to an open day for mental health nurses, they really wanted men to join. I was impressed but wanted a tech job.

It probably also depended on where you lived/which school etc.

I probably don't remember any of it if it happened at my school because I was on the verge of dropping out!! I didn't enjoy school much!! Probably cos the things I really wanted to do didn't fit in with what the school or my parents wanted me to do!! LOL

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Aren't you lot posh, going to schools that thought you might go to University - my school assumed you'd be a mechanic if you were male or a hair dresser if you were female, my wife's school taught the children how to fill in an unemployment benefit claim.

Weren't the 80s great.

[Cousin Jack]

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

I know of a two young girls ... given some behavioral issues as well, that does seem like a high probability

FWIW autism is far more difficult to diagnose in girls, they're much better at adapting and disguising it.

Lots of 'mental health' stuff ... seems to becoming much more prevelant.

Prevalent? Or, more likely, identified.

Those, and many other, stereotypes just had different labels.

What terms were in common use 50 or more years ago? 'Village idiot', or 'eccentric genius'?

And another example was the 'mad kid' who couldn't sit still, kept getting into trouble. Now? Probably ADHD.

There will be more, I'm sure.

Lots more labels now, and much more specific labels, but 2 points worry me.

1) I still think the issues are more prevelant. In my day 'village idiots' were pretty rare.

2) Labels are now being used to excuse behaviour, particularly in education. Out in the big wide world no-one gives a shit about labels, you are just a window licker, aka village idiot.

[Yorick]

I'll let you make your own headlines

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66029635

[Yorick]

Interesting indeed.

Choose between a meglomanic Putin or a power mad General with a private army.

Who's funding this private army?

Blimey. I bet some of that went into secret bank

According to Vladimir Putin, Wagner was given 86.262bn roubles ($1bn) from May 2022 to May 2023 alone for salaries and bonuses, which came from the defence ministry and state budget.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66029382

..

[gremlin]

Nice work if you can get away with not doing it.

"Italian teacher sacked for 20 years of absence vows to defend herself"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66028403

Best quote ever: The secondary school teacher, who specialises in history and philosophy, said she had documents to prove her story but told Repubblica newspaper: "Sorry, but right now I'm at the beach."

[ZRX61]

And another example was the 'mad kid' who couldn't sit still, kept getting into trouble. Now? Probably ADHD.

We had one of those. He was also fond of telling stories about what he'd been up to, which were complete fantasy/bullshit. He ended up going to law school, getting his lawyer ticket & moving to Manchester. A couple of the guys from school who have had recent dealings with him say he still tells the fantasy/bullshit stories.

Not sure about the ADHD, but one of the gals from school has 5 or 6 kids who suffer from ADD...... All Different Daddies.

[Cousin Jack]

Not sure about the ADHD, but one of the gals from school has 5 or 6 kids who suffer from ADD...... All Different Daddies.

We had one like that, aka the village bike. Personally I wouldnt touch it with yours.

[ZRX61]

Not sure about the ADHD, but one of the gals from school has 5 or 6 kids who suffer from ADD...... All Different Daddies.

We had one like that, aka the village bike. Personally I wouldnt touch it with yours.

She was quite stunning up to about 20 with the kind of body/face that would make the Pope kick a Nun. I got in there before it went pear shaped. I'm not sure when it all started to change, but these days she could make a living as an Ena Sharples impersonator.

[Screwdriver]

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school
Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm.

You are assuming all men can do exactly what they want. They all want to be plumbers, firemen, deep sea divers builders etc.

I Absolutely bloody didn't assume that!! Where did you read that assumption?? I'm actually a little offended that anyone would think I am that narrow minded. The conversation was about women, I am one and so I was responding to that particular topic

When you say women/girls are NOT given the chance etc., reverse logic is also true - because there are only two groups. So you are by implication also saying boys/men ARE given the choice.

Otherwise your comment is reduced to: “people are not given the same career guidance…” which frankly is completely true. The system of education is a bit rubbish. It has to play the numbers game and refer to the gaussian distribution of potentially suitable career options.

You encourage children based on what they can do and what they want to do then help them see what is possible and achievable (if they are different - which they quite often will be.

In an ideal world yes. The world is not ideal. We do not all have the luxury of long term, one-to-one career guidance, more’s the pity. What that does mean in practise is that those people at the extremes of the bell curve get a raw deal.

Women who would have been brilliant engineers never get steered towards that role, men who would be brilliant public relations specialists never get pointed in that direction. It’s because data from the job market tells us that it is statistically anomalous for <a person with a specific gender> to be successful in <a particular role> Plus there are so many millions of potential roles, it would take a lifetime of study just to investigate them all, so you’re stuck with what works for the majority.

Unless of course, you also happen to be unusually “driven” (as most truly successful people are), ignore careers advice. And just get on an do it anyway.

[Noggin]

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school
Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm.

You are assuming all men can do exactly what they want. They all want to be plumbers, firemen, deep sea divers builders etc.

I Absolutely bloody didn't assume that!! Where did you read that assumption?? I'm actually a little offended that anyone would think I am that narrow minded. The conversation was about women, I am one and so I was responding to that particular topic

When you say women/girls are NOT given the chance etc., reverse logic is also true - because there are only two groups. So you are by implication also saying boys/men ARE given the choice.

Otherwise your comment is reduced to: “people are not given the same career guidance…” which frankly is completely true. The system of education is a bit rubbish. It has to play the numbers game and refer to the gaussian distribution of potentially suitable career options.

And yet you missed off the bit that is important - Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm.
Maybe you didn't read to the end of my sentence - I guess I'm not writing in an interesting enough fashion

By including the rest of the sentence, that negates you “people are not given the same career guidance…”. However I DID suggest that boys who show an interest outside the norm would possibly have had the same issue but I have no direct experience of that.

If you decide to read 'implication' instead of what I actually wrote, then there's no point to this discussion!!

You encourage children based on what they can do and what they want to do then help them see what is possible and achievable (if they are different - which they quite often will be.

In an ideal world yes. The world is not ideal. We do not all have the luxury of long term, one-to-one career guidance, more’s the pity. What that does mean in practise is that those people at the extremes of the bell curve get a raw deal.

Women who would have been brilliant engineers never get steered towards that role, men who would be brilliant public relations specialists never get pointed in that direction. It’s because data from the job market tells us that it is statistically anomalous for <a person with a specific gender> to be successful in <a particular role> Plus there are so many millions of potential roles, it would take a lifetime of study just to investigate them all, so you’re stuck with what works for the majority.

Unless of course, you also happen to be unusually “driven” (as most truly successful people are), ignore careers advice. And just get on an do it anyway.

As I said before - the comment I was replying to was specifically about women not becoming trade people like plumbers, electricians etc.

At no point did I say that boys were helped more to be hairdressers or nannies/nurses than women to be tradespeople. But that is what you read.

I understand all of the quote above - lived it, am not stupid! But, in the context I was replying to, my comments stand and I don't see the need to accuse me of assumptions about males choices - I wouldn't because I have not experienced their situations. I can however comment on the context of the original quote - lived it!!

[Horse]

Lots more labels now, and much more specific labels

1) I still think the issues are more prevelant. In my day 'village idiots' were pretty rare.

You've pretty much answered your own point. Go to a theme park, there's often a barrier 'You must be taller to go on this ride'. Binary, yes/no. Use a tape measure, feet and inches, then change to centimetres ... more exact identification and differentiation.

2) Labels are now being used to excuse behaviour, particularly in education. Out in the big wide world no-one gives a shit about labels, you are just a window licker, aka village idiot.

More, clearly defined, labels, help with provision of support.

And no-one giving a shit? Wrong. Here's one example:
https://www.autism.org.uk/what-we-do/ne ... -potential