This wasn't a train.
In todays news...
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Re: In todays news...
TBF this is exactly the sort of thing which should be driving itself with a man just sitting there in case shit goes really wrong. DLR's (and lots of other trains) being doing it for a long time after all.mangocrazy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:32 am When you get loss of life on a scale such as this tram crash, wouldn't it be wise to look at some kind of automation that overrides driver control and forces a reduction in speed? In £40k passenger cars there are all manner of electronic intervention devices; lane assist, enforcement of speed limits, etc. etc. Would it not be too much to ask that similar devices are fitted to £million pieces of rolling stock? Had there been an automated override that sensed speed for that section of track was too high and intervened forcibly this might never have happened.
Obviously a tram is a bit more complicated 'cause it shares the road with loads of other stuff. Presumably you could make it essentially self driving, but the human can slow it down. Sort of, if you just sit there with your foot planted (metaphorically) it's full self driving but you can lot of the pedal too.
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It really isn't rocket science; on sections of track where a max speed limit is mandated you have a track side sensor/sender that talks to it's oppo on the tram, telling it to observe whatever speed limit is in force until such time as another track side sensor/sender gives it the all clear.
Think of it as a pit lane speed limiter.
Think of it as a pit lane speed limiter.
There is no cloud, just somebody else's computer.
- Potter
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Lots of cars have left the road and had accidents because of a driver going into a bend too fast - so knowing this, it's surely not my fault if I do it, the manufacturers should have prevented it.
"yeah ok, I was half asleep and I did plough into that crowded bus stop of people on the bend...but come on, I'm not the first to do it, so you have to let me off"
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Re: In todays news...
Agree with both. It does appear to be a clear cut case of the driver simply not paying attention to what he was doing and being 100% at fault for causing the crash.Potter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:02 amIt's a personal grievance I have about society being dumbed down, I remember a QHSE bloke explaining to a group of directors that all activities should be idiot proof, they all nodded solemnly, then I upset him by suggesting that we should stop employing idiots.Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:52 am I'm a bit 50/50 on this one! There are clearly systemic AND personal failures here.
It is a valid question, "how do you make sure dim-witted half asleep people don't drive Trams". Sounds obvious, but it does need answering.
But on the other hand, in my mind one big answer here is "fire the guy who killed people by being dim-witted and half asleep". It's not the whole solution but it's part of it! All the other drivers might be more motivated to be fully-witted.
I'm not saying we stop looking for ways to make things safer by design, that's a good idea, but that doesn't absolve idiots from making idiot choices and causing an accident and then saying it's not their fault because it wasn't idiot proof.
There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place. Six o'clock in the morning, dark and raining, two similar tunnel sections approaching a tight bend after the fastest part of the tack. The report suggests he considered braking but had a brain fart, didn't know exactly where he was and carried on at near top speed.
Which raises another question: If it is impossible for a tram to go round that bend over 30kph, why is it even possible for it to be able to be driven above that speed at that point in the track? My bloody iPhone would be able to tell me from where I sit how fast a tram is travelling on any given part of a track. It's not rocket science and if these union drivers insist they have to be present for "safety" then that's fine but have some failsafe system in place for the occasional microsleep/brainfart.
Then again going in circles here, if you develop a "perfect" failsafe system then the job becomes even more mindlessly boring. Might be cheaper to pay the unionised workforce to stay at home and let an AI system drive the trains....
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Plato
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- Potter
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Re: In todays news...
Being an accountant is boring, but if the company accountants had got too bored to stay awake and pay him his wages that month then he'd have been out squealing like a pig about how done by he is.Screwdriver wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am
There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.
He got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.
Instead of holding him accountable he walks free and some faceless entity gets blamed for not preventing it. The next time him and his mates are crying on a picket line for more pay, someone should remind them they get paid for doing a job a very bored monkey could do and they have zero responsibility if they don't even do that properly.
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Re: In todays news...
Very much a thing already on loads of trains, innit.Screwdriver wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am Might be cheaper to pay the unionised workforce to stay at home and let an AI system drive the trains....
When AI unionises we're fucked
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This is true and I don't disagree with the sentiment but this is a real world problem which needs a real world solution. Yes locking this chap up would definitely have been the right thing to do.Potter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 amBeing an accountant is boring, but if the company accountants had got too bored to stay awake and pay him his wages that month then he'd have been out squealing like a pig about how done by he is.Screwdriver wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am
There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.
He got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.
Instead of holding him accountable he walks free and some faceless entity gets blamed for not preventing it. The next time him and his mates are crying on a picket line for more pay, someone should remind them they get paid for doing a job a very bored monkey could do and they have zero responsibility if they don't even do that properly.
But then the union force would go on strike everywhere all at once, the people he killed would still be dead, train/tram drivers would still nod off or fuck up etc. We're still at square #1 though tbh, I wouldn't want to present that argument to the grieving families.
Also, I can't believe he hasn't been sacked or fined/docked wages for literally not doing his job but, see above... It's a shitshow.
There needs to be a much more effective solution to the actual problem that their job is too boring. I hesitate to suggest the unions are too powerful, I agree there should be protections for the labour workforce but as with any such system, it is susceptible to being used for immoral, over protective nonsense like this. They should have stood up for humanity and thrown the book at him and allow common sense justice to prevail.
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Re: In todays news...
Do you have cause to carry out investigation of accidents in your line of work?Potter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:44 amI did read it, a quick skim read just now confirms what I remember, there was nothing to make me change my mind, the cause of the crash was the driver going too fast and not braking.millemille wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:00 am Maybe read the RAIB report before flapping your gums?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s_v2.2.pdf
Not sure if I missed an important punchline somewhere but like all these types of reports there were arse covering points about the company not taking every single potential step to ensure that it is impossible for a dim-witted person who is half asleep to operate the train without crashing it - but ultimately if the driver had done his job properly and not been half asleep, then it wouldn't have crashed.
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Re: In todays news...
There was a case a few years ago of 2 airline pilots in the US getting distracted in the cockpit (I believe they were trying to use some sort of job booking system on their personal laptops). They over shot their destination and had to turn back. No-one was hurt and the plane carried on merrily flying itself safely on autopilot the whole time.
Both pilots lost their licences and fucked their careers, even though there were no real consequences to their actions. It was all "could have happened". Different culture with flying of course, but then again flying is the safest form of travel for a reason.
Both pilots lost their licences and fucked their careers, even though there were no real consequences to their actions. It was all "could have happened". Different culture with flying of course, but then again flying is the safest form of travel for a reason.
- Potter
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Re: In todays news...
I used to...edited...but just state your point.millemille wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:09 pm
Do you have cause to carry out investigation of accidents in your line of work?
Last edited by Potter on Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Potter
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Mate if I get caught at 3am on the M6 tonight doing 190mph then I'm going to jail.Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:11 pm There was a case a few years ago of 2 airline pilots in the US getting distracted in the cockpit (I believe they were trying to use some sort of job booking system on their personal laptops). They over shot their destination and had to turn back. No-one was hurt and the plane carried on merrily flying itself safely on autopilot the whole time.
Both pilots lost their licences and fucked their careers, even though there were no real consequences to their actions. It was all "could have happened". Different culture with flying of course, but then again flying is the safest form of travel for a reason.
No accident needed.
Yet this twat speeds into a bend and kills seven people and walks.
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Sorry got a bit lost on this thread, are we talking about Boris again?Potter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 amHe got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.Screwdriver wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am
There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.
Maybe those at the top should set an example to those lower down the line then maybe people would be more inclined to do their jobs correctly and not look for scape goats like they see their leaders doing when they fuck up, which is a lot!
If your boss came in wearing white trainers and had a bottle of wine at his desk, why could you not do they same, how could he come down on you for doing it when he is clearly doing it him/herself?
I have a friend who is a train driver, says it is a piece of piss and gets paid near on £50k for it, he goes in half cut quite a lot i think. They should have the same rules as drink driving, surely they have? have they not?. If i went in pissed and caused an accident i would be struck off straight away, let alone if i cause manslaughter as i work arounde children so i have to have a fairly decent level of presentation and responsibility.
Shit rolls down hill!
Last edited by Greenman on Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pfft....they don't have to Steer, which means it's at most half as difficult as driving. Couple of tinnies with your packed lunch should be fine
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I'm tempted to get a job as a train driver...Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:14 pmPfft....they don't have to Steer, which means it's at most half as difficult as driving. Couple of tinnies with your packed lunch should be fine
Sneaky few bongs too would be fine right? Just the 2.
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- Potter
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That's your point is it? The train driver killed those people because there is so much unfairness in the world, he wasn't born rich like Boris, he didn't get to go to Eton, his daddy wasn't rich and it's all so unfair, and whilst he was half asleep and blaming his own shit life on other people, he killed seven of them.Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:07 pmSorry got a bit lost on this thread, are we talking about Boris again?Potter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 amHe got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.Screwdriver wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am
There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.
Maybe those at the top should set an example to those lower down the line then maybe people would be more inclined to do their jobs correctly and not look for scape goats like they see their leaders doing when they fuck up, which is a lot!
And maybe it's circular, maybe Boris looked out of his ivory tower window at the absolute shit show of morons out there that moan about everything and never take any responsibility for themselves, and he thought "why should I give a shit when they clearly don't, let's have a party".
Maybe none of us should care.