In todays news...

[KungFooBob]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-u ... a-65953941

The thought of it happening to me makes me feel ill.

Not that it would, I'd never entertain doing anything like it.

[JackyJoll]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-u ... a-65953941

The thought of it happening to me makes me feel ill.

Not that it would, I'd never entertain doing anything like it.

If you were in that sub, you’d be worse than ill.

I wish them the best of luck, but…

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'm a bit 50/50 on this one! There are clearly systemic AND personal failures here.

It is a valid question, "how do you make sure dim-witted half asleep people don't drive Trams". Sounds obvious, but it does need answering.

But on the other hand, in my mind one big answer here is "fire the guy who killed people by being dim-witted and half asleep". It's not the whole solution but it's part of it! All the other drivers might be more motivated to be fully-witted.

[Yambo]

From reading the news report and the RAIB report (not all of it but I cherry picked what I thought would be relevant) I get the feeling that the driver was prosecuted under H & S law to provide him with a defence.

Why wasn't he prosecuted for causing death by dangerous tram driving (it maybe there isn't the facility to do so) or why wasn't he prosecuted for manslaughter? I suspect (well I get the feeling) that if he had been prosecuted for something like that,he'd have pleaded guilty. It's a failing of the CPS if you want him strung up.

Whilst it was the first tram to leave the tracks at that point, it was not the first incident of a driver going into the bend too fast and having an issue. That should tell you something.

It also highlights, for a lot of people, that the jury were all completely inappropriate people for such a job.

[mangocrazy]

When you get loss of life on a scale such as this tram crash, wouldn't it be wise to look at some kind of automation that overrides driver control and forces a reduction in speed? In £40k passenger cars there are all manner of electronic intervention devices; lane assist, enforcement of speed limits, etc. etc. Would it not be too much to ask that similar devices are fitted to £million pieces of rolling stock? Had there been an automated override that sensed speed for that section of track was too high and intervened forcibly this might never have happened.

It also stikes me that a little diamond 20mph sign actually on the bend (not before) is a case of too little, too late. Road signs indicating speed limits are significantly larger.

Sandilands.JPG (73.71 KiB) Viewed 257 times

[Yorick]

I thought trains had a dead man's handle?
That would kick in if driver fell asleep.

[Yambo]

I thought trains had a dead man's handle?
That would kick in if driver fell asleep.

This wasn't a train.

[Mr. Dazzle]

When you get loss of life on a scale such as this tram crash, wouldn't it be wise to look at some kind of automation that overrides driver control and forces a reduction in speed? In £40k passenger cars there are all manner of electronic intervention devices; lane assist, enforcement of speed limits, etc. etc. Would it not be too much to ask that similar devices are fitted to £million pieces of rolling stock? Had there been an automated override that sensed speed for that section of track was too high and intervened forcibly this might never have happened.

TBF this is exactly the sort of thing which should be driving itself with a man just sitting there in case shit goes really wrong. DLR's (and lots of other trains) being doing it for a long time after all.

Obviously a tram is a bit more complicated 'cause it shares the road with loads of other stuff. Presumably you could make it essentially self driving, but the human can slow it down. Sort of, if you just sit there with your foot planted (metaphorically) it's full self driving but you can lot of the pedal too.

[mangocrazy]

It really isn't rocket science; on sections of track where a max speed limit is mandated you have a track side sensor/sender that talks to it's oppo on the tram, telling it to observe whatever speed limit is in force until such time as another track side sensor/sender gives it the all clear.

Think of it as a pit lane speed limiter.

[Screwdriver]

I'm a bit 50/50 on this one! There are clearly systemic AND personal failures here.

It is a valid question, "how do you make sure dim-witted half asleep people don't drive Trams". Sounds obvious, but it does need answering.

But on the other hand, in my mind one big answer here is "fire the guy who killed people by being dim-witted and half asleep". It's not the whole solution but it's part of it! All the other drivers might be more motivated to be fully-witted.

It's a personal grievance I have about society being dumbed down, I remember a QHSE bloke explaining to a group of directors that all activities should be idiot proof, they all nodded solemnly, then I upset him by suggesting that we should stop employing idiots.

I'm not saying we stop looking for ways to make things safer by design, that's a good idea, but that doesn't absolve idiots from making idiot choices and causing an accident and then saying it's not their fault because it wasn't idiot proof.

Agree with both. It does appear to be a clear cut case of the driver simply not paying attention to what he was doing and being 100% at fault for causing the crash.

There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place. Six o'clock in the morning, dark and raining, two similar tunnel sections approaching a tight bend after the fastest part of the tack. The report suggests he considered braking but had a brain fart, didn't know exactly where he was and carried on at near top speed.

Which raises another question: If it is impossible for a tram to go round that bend over 30kph, why is it even possible for it to be able to be driven above that speed at that point in the track? My bloody iPhone would be able to tell me from where I sit how fast a tram is travelling on any given part of a track. It's not rocket science and if these union drivers insist they have to be present for "safety" then that's fine but have some failsafe system in place for the occasional microsleep/brainfart.

Then again going in circles here, if you develop a "perfect" failsafe system then the job becomes even more mindlessly boring. Might be cheaper to pay the unionised workforce to stay at home and let an AI system drive the trains....

[Yorick]

I thought trains had a dead man's handle?
That would kick in if driver fell asleep.

This wasn't a train.

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to see what I meant.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Might be cheaper to pay the unionised workforce to stay at home and let an AI system drive the trains....

Very much a thing already on loads of trains, innit.

When AI unionises we're fucked

[Screwdriver]

There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.

Being an accountant is boring, but if the company accountants had got too bored to stay awake and pay him his wages that month then he'd have been out squealing like a pig about how done by he is.

He got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.
Instead of holding him accountable he walks free and some faceless entity gets blamed for not preventing it. The next time him and his mates are crying on a picket line for more pay, someone should remind them they get paid for doing a job a very bored monkey could do and they have zero responsibility if they don't even do that properly.

This is true and I don't disagree with the sentiment but this is a real world problem which needs a real world solution. Yes locking this chap up would definitely have been the right thing to do.

But then the union force would go on strike everywhere all at once, the people he killed would still be dead, train/tram drivers would still nod off or fuck up etc. We're still at square #1 though tbh, I wouldn't want to present that argument to the grieving families.

Also, I can't believe he hasn't been sacked or fined/docked wages for literally not doing his job but, see above... It's a shitshow.

There needs to be a much more effective solution to the actual problem that their job is too boring. I hesitate to suggest the unions are too powerful, I agree there should be protections for the labour workforce but as with any such system, it is susceptible to being used for immoral, over protective nonsense like this. They should have stood up for humanity and thrown the book at him and allow common sense justice to prevail.

[millemille]

Maybe read the RAIB report before flapping your gums?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s_v2.2.pdf

I did read it, a quick skim read just now confirms what I remember, there was nothing to make me change my mind, the cause of the crash was the driver going too fast and not braking.

Not sure if I missed an important punchline somewhere but like all these types of reports there were arse covering points about the company not taking every single potential step to ensure that it is impossible for a dim-witted person who is half asleep to operate the train without crashing it - but ultimately if the driver had done his job properly and not been half asleep, then it wouldn't have crashed.

Do you have cause to carry out investigation of accidents in your line of work?

[Mr. Dazzle]

There was a case a few years ago of 2 airline pilots in the US getting distracted in the cockpit (I believe they were trying to use some sort of job booking system on their personal laptops). They over shot their destination and had to turn back. No-one was hurt and the plane carried on merrily flying itself safely on autopilot the whole time.

Both pilots lost their licences and fucked their careers, even though there were no real consequences to their actions. It was all "could have happened". Different culture with flying of course, but then again flying is the safest form of travel for a reason.

[Ant]

It really does hold the lives of those lost, the families of those affected and the general public in complete and utter contempt.

[Greenman]

There is of course the problem of it being way too easy and mind numbingly boring to drive a tram in the first place.

He got paid a wage for doing a job, he didn't do it properly and now people are dead.

Sorry got a bit lost on this thread, are we talking about Boris again?

Maybe those at the top should set an example to those lower down the line then maybe people would be more inclined to do their jobs correctly and not look for scape goats like they see their leaders doing when they fuck up, which is a lot!

If your boss came in wearing white trainers and had a bottle of wine at his desk, why could you not do they same, how could he come down on you for doing it when he is clearly doing it him/herself?

I have a friend who is a train driver, says it is a piece of piss and gets paid near on £50k for it, he goes in half cut quite a lot i think. They should have the same rules as drink driving, surely they have? have they not?. If i went in pissed and caused an accident i would be struck off straight away, let alone if i cause manslaughter as i work arounde children so i have to have a fairly decent level of presentation and responsibility.

Shit rolls down hill!

[Ant]

Sorry got a bit lost on this thread, are we talking about Boris again?

No, Tony Blair.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I have a friend who is a train driver, says it is a piece of piss and gets paid near on £50k for it, he goes in half cut quite a lot i think. They should have the same rules as drink driving, surely they have? have they not?

Pfft....they don't have to Steer, which means it's at most half as difficult as driving. Couple of tinnies with your packed lunch should be fine

[Greenman]

I have a friend who is a train driver, says it is a piece of piss and gets paid near on £50k for it, he goes in half cut quite a lot i think. They should have the same rules as drink driving, surely they have? have they not?

Pfft....they don't have to Steer, which means it's at most half as difficult as driving. Couple of tinnies with your packed lunch should be fine

I'm tempted to get a job as a train driver...

Sneaky few bongs too would be fine right? Just the 2.