Fast/Slow bikes/teams

[mangocrazy]

Yeah, Honda work with the 'round eyes', but all the meaningful decisions get made in Japan, through that elongated chain of command. The fact that Honda subbed frame manufacture out to Kalex is an indication that the old rigid ways may be about to change, but it will need much more than that to get and stay competitive.

[westers151]

At the moment, the power has shifted to the Europeans, just like the days of Ago and MV. KTM are the equivalent of the brilliant, but fragile Triumph/Norton, and Aprillia are the oddball privateers of the glorious age.

The Japanese have had their fingers burnt, and they know it; give it few years, they'll be back at the sharp end.

[Count Steer]

Maybe the big Japanese companies are looking further ahead and shifting emphasis ie putting less focus on ICE bikes? They've always had a business model based on units shifted and they're a bit like an oil tanker in business agility terms - take a while to change but tend to be hard to stop.

[ChrisW]

I think that's almost definitely the case, but maybe not shifting from ICE completely, rather away from supersports. I cant imagine there'll ever be another new Fireblade or R1, will there? New Panigale, RSV? Sure. And KTM need to be 'ready to race'.

[mangocrazy]

So how long is it before Honda and Yamaha decide that MotoGP is an expense that they are unable to justify in terms of units sold?

[Count Steer]

So how long is it before Honda and Yamaha decide that MotoGP is an expense that they are unable to justify in terms of units sold?

It's not just matching sales of bikes which vaguely relate to GP bikes though, a lot of it is brand building ie Honda win, someone in Vietnam wants a Honda, just like when we were young...it might just be a 250...but it's a Honda! I suppose it's why Mercedes do F1, they won't sell you an F1 car, but you can have one with the badge on. I just feel that if they really wanted to win GP they'd throw everything at it and they don't seem to be doing that so I think their emphasis has changed and they're playing the long game as a big manufacturer. Yamaha is a bit different, they're a bit more niche than Honda.

[Noggin]

Wow, thanx guys. Didn't expect so much response!!

Mat Oxley podcast would be a good start. He's always had a good handle on what goes on in racing.

I'll have a go, but I"m not very good at podcasts, bit like big documents but without something to look at!! I get distracted and miss bits!!

"Honda holds the record for the most Grand Prix victories on the premier class, having won 313 times. Yamaha is second with 245 wins, and MV Agusta is third with 139 wins."

I suspect that includes all engine classes though. But still...you'd kinda have to conclude Honda know what they're doing for the most part!

Edit: no it doesn't, says right there "premier class"

Making a new frame might only take a few days. Making an entire carbon tub for an F1 car only takes a few days!

Its knowing what to make which takes ages. Especially when pretty much everything on the bike is attached to the frame so you can't just move stuff about.

It's just how motorsport works. Limited time and ability to test, sometimes you get it right and sometimes you don't. When you get it wrong it's really hard to change stuff sometimes cause everything is so interlinked. It's really REALLY hard figuring out what you did wrong to begin with.

They were, but they aren't any more, well for sure they aren't this year!! It has just confused me as I can see some of MM's brilliance coming through in between crashes! But no one seems to be getting much from the Honda.

And Yamaha with the same rider has got nothing. To me it's just been weird!!



The comments have been really interesting, thank you. Anything from the structure of the teams to the way they work from the top down could be an issue!!

I can sort of see it in F1, the Mercedes the last couple of seasons hasn't been good for Hamilton, but his team mate has done better than I'd expect, based on how Hamilton has dealt with the car. So in that instance, it's a change in the car that works for one but not for the other.


But on the these bikes it doesn't seem to be that anyone can make them go fast, even previously fast uninjured riders.

Really interesting how it seems that the European teams are able to change things so much faster than the Japanese. I sort of understand that but it is really interesting that it is still that way when it is currently showing to be so detrimental.


Thanx again guys xx

[Demannu]

........or could the answer be that it's not that the Japanese bikes are bad ( they have won a race this year), it's just the Ducati's are so much better. If ducati are running 8 bikes, that's 8 feedback streams, which it seems they do actually now pay attention to.
I remember in 89 when steady Eddie rode the nsr, they were changing the frame more often than the tyres, however he did have a very special engineer who H actually listened to.

[mangocrazy]

........or could the answer be that it's not that the Japanese bikes are bad ( they have won a race this year), it's just the Ducati's are so much better. If ducati are running 8 bikes, that's 8 feedback streams, which it seems they do actually now pay attention to.

I think that having 8 bikes on the grid is a major plus point for Ducati - 8 streams of data every session/day/weekend must be invaluable. Yamaha have only 2 and they are really struggling. Likewise Honda only seem to have 2 fit riders at any one time. I think it's a more a case that the Japanese manufacturers are being left behind and don't appear to know what development direction to take.

I remember in 89 when steady Eddie rode the nsr, they were changing the frame more often than the tyres, however he did have a very special engineer who H actually listened to.

A certain Mr. Erv Kanemoto, I believe... Didn't Erv get at least one non-Honda frame made to his own specifications?

[ChrisW]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

[Bigyin]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

As i understand it they dont have to enter a replacement rider at the round after the injured rider was spannered.....they will have to enter a replacement for the next round to keep the grid numbers up if the injured rider is still out.

LCR will need one for Rins, Mir might be back for HRC, if not then Stefan Bradls fairings will probably be back on the bike

[The Spin Doctor]

"Honda holds the record for the most Grand Prix victories on the premier class, having won 313 times. Yamaha is second with 245 wins, and MV Agusta is third with 139 wins."

It's worth comparing these figures with the number of starts, of course. Though Honda dominated when MM was at his peak, I have a feeling that MV Agusta have a higher % of wins vs starts than Honda.

There must be a website with the data somewhere

[Yorick]

"Honda holds the record for the most Grand Prix victories on the premier class, having won 313 times. Yamaha is second with 245 wins, and MV Agusta is third with 139 wins."

It's worth comparing these figures with the number of starts, of course. Though Honda dominated when MM was at his peak, I have a feeling that MV Agusta have a higher % of wins vs starts than Honda.

There must be a website with the data somewhere

It's impossible to work out coz it's not only factory bikes.
Back in the day there were hundreds of privateer bikes in GPs and often took the spoils ahead of the factory boys.
Remember no. 7

[The Spin Doctor]

It's impossible to work out coz it's not only factory bikes.
Back in the day there were hundreds of privateer bikes in GPs and often took the spoils ahead of the factory boys.
Remember no. 7

Hmm. Take a look at the dominance of Ago on the MVs... between 68 and 72 he won every race he entered, bar two DNFs.

Here's his win / DNF / start record from 68 to 72.

68 - 10 / 10
69 - 10 / 12
70 - 10 / 11
71 - 8 + 1 ret / 11
72 - 11 + 1 ret / 13

That's a big chunk of those MV wins.

[Demannu]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

Yes, wtf wants to ride a non competitive bike that may end their motogp career by either injuring them or making them look slow!

[Bigyin]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

As i understand it they dont have to enter a replacement rider at the round after the injured rider was spannered.....they will have to enter a replacement for the next round to keep the grid numbers up if the injured rider is still out.

LCR will need one for Rins, Mir might be back for HRC, if not then Stefan Bradls fairings will probably be back on the bike

Looks like it will be Lecuona in for Rins and Bradl in for Mir for the Assen round

[ChrisW]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

As i understand it they dont have to enter a replacement rider at the round after the injured rider was spannered.....they will have to enter a replacement for the next round to keep the grid numbers up if the injured rider is still out.

LCR will need one for Rins, Mir might be back for HRC, if not then Stefan Bradls fairings will probably be back on the bike

Looks like it will be Lecuona in for Rins and Bradl in for Mir for the Assen round

Weird - I just came to post that I'd read Lecuona was subbing in for Mir. Given the state of online MotoGP news we might have to wait until Friday to find out which it is!

[ChrisW]

Was any reason given for neither Rins nor Mir being replaced by other riders whilst they're out?

Yes, wtf wants to ride a non competitive bike that may end their motogp career by either injuring them or making them look slow!

I take it that was the official HRC press release?

[Yorick]

As i understand it they dont have to enter a replacement rider at the round after the injured rider was spannered.....they will have to enter a replacement for the next round to keep the grid numbers up if the injured rider is still out.

LCR will need one for Rins, Mir might be back for HRC, if not then Stefan Bradls fairings will probably be back on the bike

Looks like it will be Lecuona in for Rins and Bradl in for Mir for the Assen round

Weird - I just came to post that I'd read Lecuona was subbing in for Mir. Given the state of online MotoGP news we might have to wait until Friday to find out which it is!

Bradl usually rides in HRC colours.

[ChrisW]

Looks like it will be Lecuona in for Rins and Bradl in for Mir for the Assen round

Weird - I just came to post that I'd read Lecuona was subbing in for Mir. Given the state of online MotoGP news we might have to wait until Friday to find out which it is!

Bradl usually rides in HRC colours.

I was assuming that too..here's one of the articles anyway, like I say - who knows!

https://the-race.com/motogp/marc-marque ... continues/