Fast/Slow bikes/teams

[Noggin]

Ok, I am probably going to ask stupid questions, but having spent the weekend actually watching all the MotoGP stuff (albeit not understanding everything the commentators said!!), I have questions!!

Fab Q - He seemed to be the most amazing rider in the past couple of years (bearing in mind I didn't watch that much in the last few years and when I did I hardly understood anything!! LOL)

- has he 'gone off the boil'?

- has the bike gone off the boil - and if so, HTF does a team like Yamaha have that problem?

- or was he never 'that' good but the bike was better than all the others?

M Marquez - probably similar questions I suppose, about the bike!! How in the hell have Honda produced a bike that the guy who's won the most championships of the current riders can't get to the finish line and if he does, it's not as high as he should be?

I get that MM has had some serious injuries and time out, but it seems that he is still capable but the bike isn't?


I'm obviously most peeved about Yamaha cos I did become a fan of the Fab Frog, although Zarco is ticking that box a bit too


But, I really don't get how teams like Yamaha and Honda can produce a bike that seems to have become worse than it was in previous years?

Like I said, probably stupid questions, but hey, I am not particularly knowledgable on manufacturers, or racing!!

[The Spin Doctor]

Mat Oxley podcast would be a good start. He's always had a good handle on what goes on in racing.

[mangocrazy]

I think the answer to Noggin's question can be almost summed up in one word - Ducati. Ducati (and to a lesser extent KTM and Aprilia) have made quantum leaps forward while the Japanese manufacturers have only made tiny steps, and not always in a forward direction.

Fab Frog could have won the 2022 WC but rather shot himself in the foot in the second half of the season, ably assisted by Yamaha who couldn't seem to put a decent bike underneath him.

Honda seem equally as lost as Yamaha, but MM really hasn't helped himself by constantly over-riding the bike and, as a result, crashing out of numerous races. He's yet to score any points on a Sunday. One of his crashes also injured him sufficiently that he had to miss 3 races. But it's fair to say that the Honda is shit and only MM can make any sense of it, and even then he invariably crashes his brains out trying to make it do things it really can't do.

[Mr. Dazzle]

But, I really don't get how teams like Yamaha and Honda can produce a bike that seems to have become worse than it was in previous years?

I imagine Yamaha and Honda are a bit confused about it too!

[Yorick]

For some reason, the Yamaha is a lot slower this year.

Either way, although a repeat of last year’s speed would have been good enough for Quartararo to claim fourth on Sunday
A repeat of his 2021 race time (41m 16.344s) would have seen him take victory by half-a-second.

Full story

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/10287 ... -last-year

[Yorick]

Jack tells it like it is

“We're [KTM] the only ones not complaining about our motorcycles and we're actually trying to do something about it, to fix it. Everyone else, all they do is throw their toys out of the cot and say that ‘my bike’s shit. It’s as simple as that,” Miller said.

Responding to a comment that 'some bikes' are clearly worse, he added:

“But why are they [some bikes] shit? Because it’s their own doing. They kicked out 99% of the engineers, to get his engineers. His guys in there. And now they are f**ked and he can't even make it past a lap.

“So it's their own doing. Everybody wants to complain about their own bikes, nobody wants to do anything about it. Shut the f**k up and get on with the job. You’re paid to ride a motorcycle not to be a f**king princess and complain about your bike!”

Miller didn't name any riders, and no one has publicly called their bike ‘shit’ but Honda, Yamaha and Aprilia riders have all expressed frustration at their manufacturers falling behind the Ducati's technical level.

Meanwhile the reference to ‘not completing a lap’ could be perceived as pointing to the situation for Marc Marquez, after the Spaniard withdrew from the German MotoGP following a fifth fall of the weekend in warm-up.

[mangocrazy]

I have heard that Honda tend to use the HRC race team as a test bed/proving ground for the brightest engineering graduates, give them 2 or 3 years, then move them on and bring in a new crop. I don't know how much truth there is in this tale, but if it's true then it could explain the way Honda seem to be unable to even get the basics right. I guess any race team needs a balance between gifted newcomers with a different way of looking at a problem, and old hands who've seen it all, done it all and can provide stability and a proven way of working.

I would love to know who Jack is referring to when he says "They kicked out 99% of the engineers, to get his engineers. His guys in there." Who is Jack talking about? Marc Marquez, Alberto Puig, one of the Japanese bosses?

Fascinating stuff.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Doesn't sound very likely TBH - besides, move 'em on to where? "now you've got 3 years experience in top flight international motor sport it's time to get down to the real business of wingmirrors!".

I've met quite a few HRC Engineers as it 'appens, can't say I noticed a disproportionately high number of young faces.

Must also be a new policy too right? IIRC more than half the championships in the modern 4 stroke era were won by Honda?

[The Spin Doctor]

Honda historically have also had a bit of a reputation for designing a new bike back home that the engineers say should work, then bringing it to the racing and telling their riders to ride it, rather than listening to rider feedback and incrementally changing things around to suit the rider.

Mind you, not all riders have been gifted that way.

[Mr. Dazzle]

ISTR MotoGP is pretty locked down once the season starts though? So once you've got a shonky bike you're basically stuck with it all season by and large?

[mangocrazy]

ISTR MotoGP is pretty locked down once the season starts though? So once you've got a shonky bike you're basically stuck with it all season by and large?

Only the engines and the number of aero iterations are locked down. The rest you can change as and when you like. And Honda do have a well-deserved reputation for listening more to their Japanese engineers than the riders.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Then it'll just be practical limitations...changing a frame for example would take ages in relative terms. Plus isn't engine ridability one of the problems ATM?

Honda can't be all bad, they must surely be top 2 or 3 teams ever in the history of (top tier) GP racing? Wild ass guess but smells right.

Regarding the OP...this is just what happens in Pro motorsport! Nature of the beast innit.

[ChrisW]

They've just introduced a new frame in the last couple of rounds, albeit out-sourced.

[Mr. Dazzle]

From Italy?

[mangocrazy]

Then it'll just be practical limitations...changing a frame for example would take ages in relative terms. Plus isn't engine ridability one of the problems ATM?

Honda can't be all bad, they must surely be top 2 or 3 teams ever in the history of (top tier) GP racing? Wild ass guess but smells right.

Regarding the OP...this is just what happens in Pro motorsport! Nature of the beast innit.

You're making the classic mistake of viewing things from a 4 wheel perspective. A frame can be fabbed in a few weeks. Engine rideability is largely controlled by electronics, which can be changed on the fly.

Historically Honda are probably top of the pile, but for the last 2-3 years they have been truly abysmal, with or without MM; which is why this thread exists.

The real problem is that Honda are stuck in a rigid, top down chain of command where everything has to be tested and re-tested to ensure it's perfect before it can be allowed out of the hallowed portals. Ducati/KTM/Aprilia think of something, knock up a prototype in a few days, then test it next day. If it works, get it on the bike(s). Honda (and it appears Yamaha) have no answer to that kind of rapid prototyping.

[mangocrazy]

From Italy?

Germany. Kalex.

[Mr. Dazzle]

"Honda holds the record for the most Grand Prix victories on the premier class, having won 313 times. Yamaha is second with 245 wins, and MV Agusta is third with 139 wins."

I suspect that includes all engine classes though. But still...you'd kinda have to conclude Honda know what they're doing for the most part!

Edit: no it doesn't, says right there "premier class"

Making a new frame might only take a few days. Making an entire carbon tub for an F1 car only takes a few days!

Its knowing what to make which takes ages. Especially when pretty much everything on the bike is attached to the frame so you can't just move stuff about.

It's just how motorsport works. Limited time and ability to test, sometimes you get it right and sometimes you don't. When you get it wrong it's really hard to change stuff sometimes cause everything is so interlinked. It's really REALLY hard figuring out what you did wrong to begin with.

[Bigyin]

I would love to know who Jack is referring to when he says "They kicked out 99% of the engineers, to get his engineers. His guys in there." Who is Jack talking about? Marc Marquez, Alberto Puig, one of the Japanese bosses?

Fascinating stuff.

Just wondering if its a Honda reference but not in relation to the Marc side of the garage but management working in the the other side shifting out the team Pol had to get in some guys from Suzuki as part of the Mir package in order to benefit Marcs side of the garage from their ideas as the Suzuki handled a lot better

[mangocrazy]

You're missing the point. It's Honda's way of working which is letting them down. They're not anywhere near as responsive as the European factories, and it appears that their engineers are not up to snuff. Either that or they are being held back by rigid, bureaucratic management - you decide.

Their way of working was fine when they only had other Japanese factories (with similar working practices) to compete against. Now they're up against much more nimble opponents and they don't know how to combat that.

Just look at how little success Honda have had since 2020. It's pretty gobsmacking. Historically they're top dogs. Right now they're scraping the barrel.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Having worked with Japanese motorsport quite a lot (including HRC!) I can certainly see that being possible, but on the other hand...it was me, the British guy working in a British firm right? So clearly they work with the round eyes in our way sometimes

I'd take it all with a certain pinch of salt TBH. I remember similar things being said when Honda and McLaren were doing really badly, but I know for a fact loads of that work was done here in MK by British engineers