Energy bills

[ZRX61]

https://dailycaller.com/2023/05/31/elec ... ords-2022/

Not sure where they're getting the numbers, around here bills went up by over 100% & in some cases 200+%

[Cousin Jack]

IIRC the price cap rules from Ofgen were changed to allow bigger standing charges? So it's the same total average bill but the ratio is different.

I could be imagining that.

That sounds right. I think they are starting to smart from keeping power stations on standby for cloudy days and aren't selling enough KWh, I can't see this improving so future pricing might make solar even less attractive.

I keep seeing wind farms idle, or with 1 out of 6 or 8 turning whilst the wind is a nice steady breeze. Going Green is not going right.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Can't say I've seen that, bloody loads of them round 'ere (and everywhere else I suppose ) and I don't recall seeing a large number of stationary ones.

The M1 is practically lined with em, I do wonder if its easier to get planning permission next to a Motorway.

[cheb]

IIRC the price cap rules from Ofgen were changed to allow bigger standing charges? So it's the same total average bill but the ratio is different.

I could be imagining that.

That sounds right. I think they are starting to smart from keeping power stations on standby for cloudy days and aren't selling enough KWh, I can't see this improving so future pricing might make solar even less attractive.

I keep seeing wind farms idle, or with 1 out of 6 or 8 turning whilst the wind is a nice steady breeze. Going Green is not going right.

They might be being serviced, waiting on spares or whatever. I'm sure normal generating stations shut down for maintenance but that's not as obvious.

[Kneerly Down]

Not that many generators are paid to not generate electricity.
UK wind power operators were paid roughly £29m in April this year, to not generate 373,615 MWh of electricity.
I work that out at roughly an average of somewhat over 1,000 onshore wind turbines held still instead of generating for the entirety of the month.

[Cousin Jack]

They might be being serviced, waiting on spares or whatever. I'm sure normal generating stations shut down for maintenance but that's not as obvious.

Maybe. Last Friday I was out on the bike, on a road I rarely use on the eastern edge of Bodmin Moor. Group of turbines ahead, slightly different design with 2 blades and squared-off hub, most of them were idle and only 1 turning. Noticed them because of the different design, and that most of the group had blades idle and set horizontal. Perhaps the group were being commissioned, or decommissioned.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Not that many generators are paid to not generate electricity.
UK wind power operators were paid roughly £29m in April this year, to not generate 373,615 MWh of electricity.
I work that out at roughly an average of somewhat over 1,000 onshore wind turbines held still instead of generating for the entirety of the month.

Is this a grid capacity thing, a price control thing or what?

[cheb]

Not that many generators are paid to not generate electricity.
UK wind power operators were paid roughly £29m in April this year, to not generate 373,615 MWh of electricity.
I work that out at roughly an average of somewhat over 1,000 onshore wind turbines held still instead of generating for the entirety of the month.

CJ mentioned one of several not running. If they were being paid not to generate would they not turn them all off, or run them all at reduced output.

Output can also be throttled because the local grid infrastructure needs working on, either maintenance or repair. Grid faults will also stop the turbines running, it can ten or so minutes for the machine to come back online depending on windspeed. The turbine will measure the wind speed for a period to check if it's worth starting generating.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I would guess it's more efficient to run fewer turbines at a higher percentage of their rated output if you want to throttle the array. More efficient electrically and more sensible in terms of reduced wear.

[JamJar]

Not that many generators are paid to not generate electricity.
UK wind power operators were paid roughly £29m in April this year, to not generate 373,615 MWh of electricity.
I work that out at roughly an average of somewhat over 1,000 onshore wind turbines held still instead of generating for the entirety of the month.

I worked with a guy about 5 years ago who designed some of the software that managed the supply from multiple sources and all the generators are compensated for NOT producing when demand is low not just wind.

[cheb]

I would guess it's more efficient to run fewer turbines at a higher percentage of their rated output if you want to throttle the array. More efficient electrically and more sensible in terms of reduced wear.

That might depend on the weather, the generator core doesn't benefit from not running in cold wet weather, there's a heating cycle if it's been stationary for a while. You can't just bash them straight on at full power. Timed maintenance might also be a thing, if all the turbines have run for about the same length of time then they all need servicing at the same time, maintenance teams cover large areas not just individual sites.

[Cousin Jack]

What I do know is that from several hilltops nearby you can see wind turbines in every direction, and some big solar farms too. I reckon we are generating more than our fair share down in the sunny and windy south west. It may be essential but it doesn't look pretty.

[Yorick]

When I went over to Gran Canaria, there were hundreds (thousands?) of turbines.

We only have about 15 on this island.

[MrLongbeard]

It may be essential but it doesn't look pretty.

Move to disagree, I have no logical reason why, but I bloody love me a chonking great big turbine, I could look at 'em just wind-milling around and around for hours

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's the off shore ones which impress me. They're absolutely fecking enormous. I still don't quite believe it when I see them from a distance

[Kneerly Down]

CJ mentioned one of several not running. If they were being paid not to generate would they not turn them all off, or run them all at reduced output

They do look at stopping individual turbines. I've been trying to see whether how this might work as some of the community benefits from the developers are now looking at assigning the community a turbine, and whether the developer will prioritise their own turbines to get the constraint payments. Issues around maintenance and the like also...glad it's not me trying to do the contracts!

[Screwdriver]

Can't help feeling there's something seriously wrong with our energy companies motivations if they're paying wind farms to be idle while still churning out energy from coal and gas. I appreciate there are some logistical issues and no easy mass energy storage solutions (??) but even so, just seems wrong to do everything except actually use those magnificent creations.

[Count Steer]

Can't help feeling there's something seriously wrong with our energy companies motivations if they're paying wind farms to be idle while still churning out energy from coal and gas. I appreciate there are some logistical issues and no easy mass energy storage solutions (??) but even so, just seems wrong to do everything except actually use those magnificent creations.

It is one of the beauties of a wind turbine that you can 'turn it off and on' very quickly (relatively) to meet demand - if the wind is blowing. Nuclear and coal (not that there's much of that left) is very good at running steady state to meet base load. Gas is somewhere in the middle and subject to cost and security of supply issues. I thought it was mainly the gas powered facilities that were paid to be on stand-by.

I do wonder if anyone is thinking about humongous solar farms in hot places - like deserts - pumping out power into hydrogen farms. (I've read a couple of sci-fi books where that's part of the general scenario, so I'm not the only one). They could just generate electricity but getting that to where it's needed is probably more difficult than shipping hydrogen. ie cover the Negev in panels, generate hydrogen at the Red Sea and ship it from there. Same sort of thing with Egypt - the infrastructure for shipping LNG is already there and so is the sunshine.

[Mr. Dazzle]

In this utopia we can even green the deserts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45435593

[Count Steer]

In this utopia we can even green the deserts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45435593

Well, the Sahara wasn't always a desert. Big ask to turn it back into a forest though.

It's also quite a long way from the biggest electricity demands/markets. I suppose if you can cope with the transmission losses and build the output into a secure, balanced transnational network then why not?