Treadeager wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:37 am
I don't think anybody is disputing the probability that they were to blame , but nature or nurture.......there but for the grace of God.........
Some of the comments have been quite judgemental . I was actually asking MrMoofo to delete rather than admin .
Just my opinion !
I will do so when the parents stop blaming everyone else. Unless you have something to add?
It is about It is about the blame response in the aftermath - not about what happens during the accident
I can give you loads of examples of people not wanting to take responsibility and blaming anyone and everyone else for fatal accidents.
I only worked in Safety Engineering Group (SEG) at LCC for 5 years but in that time I personally was involved in half a dozen fatal traffic accidents where the police were to blame or the County Council or the road itself.
At least one of them went on for a few years, an 11 year old boy, Ryan Clark was crossing a main road (Schleswig Way) with his brother and changed his mind half way across. The brother carried on and was OK, Ryan turned back and was hit by a car and killed. His mother simply couldn't accept that her son had got it wrong. The road was dangerous and the CC were to blame. After a couple of years SEG were tasked with doing 'something' to prevent anything similar. It landed on my desk. I put in a pair of extra signs to warn drivers there may be pedestrians crossing but in all honesty they weren't needed.
In another incident 4 young lads died when they hit a tree on the A59 near Salmesbury travelling in excess of 100 mph. A few months later I was asked to respond to an email from the families who demanded that the road was made safer. They weren't impressed when I told them that the CC had no intention of making the road safer for drug and alcohol fueled young men to break the speed limit in unroadworthy cars. Everything I put in the email was public knowledge following the inquest but they still blamed the road and took a serious downer on me for reminding them that their drug addict/dealing kids were 100% to blame for their own deaths.
I could go on. That our small group dealt with so many means that blaming someone else is widespread and ongoing. Very few people can handle the truth or want to know it.
There are regular calls for a road near where I used to live (the A518 from Stafford to Uttoxeter) to be made 'more safe' or 'dual carriageway', normally after there has been a fatality involving excessive speed, bad driving or driving under the influence of drink or drugs. It's a single carriageway road that is NSL for most of its length, as it meanders through countryside and farm land. When I first travelled it (well over 50 years ago) it was a very different road, with a lot of slow corners, which had the effect of keeping overall speeds down. As the years have gone by, all but one sub-50mph corner have been re-profiled or straightened with the net result that any accidents that happen now are at much faster speeds and with far graver consequences. And yet still the calls to make the 'killer' A518 'safer' persist. It's never the driver's fault, always the road.
I'd be interested to know. When the boys parents bought him that Ebike, where did they think he was going to use it?
Am I correct to think that the more powerful ones are not permitted on pavements etc. The boy wasn't old enough to have a licence so couldn't use iit on the road. Unless there is easy access to an area where the bike can be used safely, he should never have been bought it !?>
I was in Edinburgh yesterday and sandwiched between two busses at the lights on Princes street was a guy on an E scooter with a toddler on the back. Neither had a helmet
Jody wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 2:08 pm
I'd be interested to know. When the boys parents bought him that Ebike, where did they think he was going to use it?
Am I correct to think that the more powerful ones are not permitted on pavements etc. The boy wasn't old enough to have a licence so couldn't use iit on the road. Unless there is easy access to an area where the bike can be used safely, he should never have been bought it !?>
E-bikes are classed as pushbikes so none of them are allowed on pavements unless they are designated as cycle paths,
'More powerful' ones are unregistered motorbikes (I don't know if this was a legal one or not).
E-bikes are legal to ride on the roads from 14 and don't require a license so they may not have been breaking any law, I'm not sure on passengers.
There's nothing especially dangerous about e-bikes, I think the main problems seem to be they are quiet and other people assume they will be going slower than they are.
Jody wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 2:08 pm
I'd be interested to know. When the boys parents bought him that Ebike, where did they think he was going to use it?
Am I correct to think that the more powerful ones are not permitted on pavements etc. The boy wasn't old enough to have a licence so couldn't use iit on the road. Unless there is easy access to an area where the bike can be used safely, he should never have been bought it !?>
E-bikes are a legal maximum of 250w power and limited to 15mph, go above that and the motor is supposed to cut out. The deliveroo crowd love to put big 1000w magic pie motors in thiers. You're talking 30 odd mph. The local beat cops in Belfast turn a blind eye as it's "Just a pushbike"
There used to be an Uber Eats guy with one of the leccy MTB things it looks like those kids were on. He passed me on the bus one night. The bus was flat out at 45mph.
He disappeared after a while and I heard the cops seized it after traffic branch got him.
News articles all say these kids were riding a Sur Ron bike. So far as I can work out from the website they're all either not road legal, or they're classed as motorcycles/mopeds depending on model. So no 15 year old should be riding one on the road?
An article by an aunt of one of the boys. She said, "He had been arrested 30 times in the last 2 years, and not one of the charges stuck". As if that is something to be proud of!
A friend of mine teaches in Cardiff, not at the school that these lads went to, but several of the kids he teaches knew these lads at least…
It won’t surprise anyone that the Sur-ron electric bike is the delivery vehicle of choice for enterprising drug runners, and that indeed, this bike certainly wasn’t bought for them by a parent living on one of the most deprived council estates in the UK.
The reason these lads knew so many people was precisely what financed the bike in the first place!
It is incredibly sad that two lads lost their lives through misadventure in the way they did. What is even more sad is the circumstances that have led to them being in the situation where they felt they had no other option but to run from the Police in the first place!
mboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:55 pm
What is even more sad is the circumstances that have led to them being in the situation where they felt they had no other option but to run from the Police in the first place!
Sad? They chose that life, that was their own decision.
People are not 'trafficked' into it generally speaking.
I do sometimes think its a shame drug dealers haven't had more opportunity to "go straight" though!
The really good ones clearly have lots of skills in business. Have to wonder where some might have ended up if they'd focused the same efforts elsewhere.
mboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:55 pm
What is even more sad is the circumstances that have led to them being in the situation where they felt they had no other option but to run from the Police in the first place!
Sad? They chose that life, that was their own decision.
People are not 'trafficked' into it generally speaking.
You missed the point…
That being that 2 lads have grown up in a very deprived area, and believed this to be their best route for success… We aren’t all born with the same opportunities in life. I was lucky enough to grow up in the country, where to pass the time I got to ride my bike or kick a ball about, the only drugs that anyone in my village knew about were the prescription ones keeping the plethora of OAP’S alive…
mboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:55 pm
What is even more sad is the circumstances that have led to them being in the situation where they felt they had no other option but to run from the Police in the first place!
Sad? They chose that life, that was their own decision.
People are not 'trafficked' into it generally speaking.
You missed the point…
That being that 2 lads have grown up in a very deprived area, and believed this to be their best route for success… We aren’t all born with the same opportunities in life. I was lucky enough to grow up in the country, where to pass the time I got to ride my bike or kick a ball about, the only drugs that anyone in my village knew about were the prescription ones keeping the plethora of OAP’S alive…
Yup, and I grew up in inner city Liverpool where many of my mates did time, dealt drugs, took drugs. Life choices.
They didn't grow up in a more deprived area than Scotland Road in Liverpool I can tell you.
IIRC though weeksy you've not exactly been completely on the straight and narrow your whole life either. How much of the fact you're "OK" now is down to luck?
Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:56 pm
IIRC though weeksy you've not exactly been completely on the straight and narrow your whole life either. How much of the fact you're "OK" now is down to luck?
A decent chunk of it. I had many scenarios that could easily have swung another way and found myself in a very different life.
This kids may have grown into responsible adults, I don't know. All I do know is, they appear to be drug dealing scrotes.
mboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:55 pm
Apologies for dragging this up…
A friend of mine teaches in Cardiff, not at the school that these lads went to, but several of the kids he teaches knew these lads at least…
It won’t surprise anyone that the Sur-ron electric bike is the delivery vehicle of choice for enterprising drug runners, and that indeed, this bike certainly wasn’t bought for them by a parent living on one of the most deprived council estates in the UK.
The reason these lads knew so many people was precisely what financed the bike in the first place!
It is incredibly sad that two lads lost their lives through misadventure in the way they did. What is even more sad is the circumstances that have led to them being in the situation where they felt they had no other option but to run from the Police in the first place!
And now their parents will have to reimburse the dealers for the cost of the bike.
Have to wonder where some might have ended up if they'd focused the same efforts elsewhere.