Hydrogen Engines???

[demographic]

Pretty much...but people like the broom broom. Can you imagine how much Ferrari are bricking it? They've pretty much wed themselves to the idea that the engine is the "soul" of the car. Now what?

Hydrogen fuel cell makes some more sense. Its basically a quicker charging (but much less efficient) battery.

Meh, they pretty much wed themselves to the V12 engine years ago, then they got over that.
They'll get over the next bit.

And as for the Lithium part?
Im no expert but I'm not convinced that Lithium will be the main battery technology a decade from now.
Or maybe more likely, it will be a part of the answer but not all of it.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Always feels a bit daft to argue "we can't rely on this finite resource we dig out of the ground" in the context of finding alternatives to fossil fuels.

[KungFooBob]

Always feels a bit daft to argue "we can't rely on this finite resource we dig out of the ground" in the context of finding alternatives to fossil fuels.

I always wonder where we're going to get the materials to build a Dyson sphere?

[Mussels]

I have a vision. My roof covered in solar panels, a lithium battery to cover short term storage and fluctuations and then a hydrogen generator for long term storage meaning I can use energy from the summer sun to power my house through winter.
Short and long term batteries sorted, just need to sort out safe tanks.

The same could be applied to cars, hybrids with a hydrogen fuel cell and a small lithium battery.

[demographic]

Always feels a bit daft to argue "we can't rely on this finite resource we dig out of the ground" in the context of finding alternatives to fossil fuels.

I always wonder where we're going to get the materials to build a Dyson sphere?

Ask James.

As the prominent brexiteer fucked off abroad years ago I reckon he'll get his manky plastic from abroad.

[KungFooBob]

Always feels a bit daft to argue "we can't rely on this finite resource we dig out of the ground" in the context of finding alternatives to fossil fuels.

I always wonder where we're going to get the materials to build a Dyson sphere?

Ask James.

As the prominent brexiteer fucked off abroad years ago I reckon he'll get his manky plastic from abroad.

Soon as I hit post, I knew this was coming

[Count Steer]

Always feels a bit daft to argue "we can't rely on this finite resource we dig out of the ground" in the context of finding alternatives to fossil fuels.

The location of the bulk of the readily accessible hydrocarbon resources was fortuitous in terms of geo-politics. Lithium is a bit more of an issue. Sodium-ion batteries should solve that (of course, China is ahead of that manufacturing game too and, possibly, India?).

It just seems a bit to dismiss all power options apart from batteries when ICE type engine manufacture is so widely established and while one country has such an extensive grip on battery manufacture.

[Mr. Dazzle]

China doesn't have a monopoly on raw materials though, far from it. It's fair to say there's a lot of material X, Y or Z in China but thats mostly cause its a big country!

China absolutely has a grip on lots of manufacturing though, but I don't know of an OEM that isn't taking steps on that front. Some suppliers practically scream "look were not Chinese!" now IME.

[Count Steer]

China doesn't have a monopoly on raw materials though, far from it. It's fair to say there's a lot of material X, Y or Z in China but thats mostly cause its a big country!

China absolutely has a grip on lots of manufacturing though, but I don't know of an OEM that isn't taking steps on that front. Some suppliers practically scream "look were not Chinese!" now IME.

It's not just about having stuff on the doorstep though. It's what leverage you have over the extractors. Take cobalt, most of it comes from the DRC. Who seems to be everywhere in Africa? China. When they were talking numbers of foreign nationals in Sudan, the Chinese numbers were rather surprising.

Look what happened to production when chip supplies (and wiring looms) got a bit harder to get when things kicked off in a couple of places.

Resilience doesn't seem to be a western strong suit.

[Bigjawa]

Pretty much...but people like the broom broom. Can you imagine how much Ferrari are bricking it? They've pretty much wed themselves to the idea that the engine is the "soul" of the car. Now what?

Hydrogen fuel cell makes some more sense. Its basically a quicker charging (but much less efficient) battery.

Translink, the local bus company, bought 18 hydrogen fuel cell deckers a few years ago at 375k each.

3 have entered service, the other 15 failed from day one and have been parked up.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah there's some dev

375k isn't that much for a bus though? It sounds all Ferrari like in price, but I'd guess even a diesel bus is in the 100s of thousands?

[Bigjawa]

Yeah there's some dev

375k isn't that much for a bus though? It sounds all Ferrari like in price, but I'd guess even a diesel bus is in the 100s of thousands?

The diesel version is around 300k.

The big hybrid artic ones I drove were 648k each in 2018.

Thr problem with these hydros is that after they were bought, the company that built went bust. The new owners understandably don't want to know.

Same bus company bought a load of EV ones too without the charging infrastructure in place. They only realised this after they sold/scrapped the old diesel fleet.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Do train and bus purchasing departments get special training on how to make poor decisions, or is it a generic public transport thing?

[Demannu]

Do train and bus purchasing departments get special training on how to make poor decisions, or is it a generic public transport thing?

They all employ graduates with business degrees, and not an oz of common sense.
A few years back (2008/9) a Stagecoach strategic buyer (diesel buyer) negotiated a price at £x/l for the year the week before the market fell on its arse and pump prices were £x-5%. Apparently he got promoted!

[Bigjawa]

Do train and bus purchasing departments get special training on how to make poor decisions, or is it a generic public transport thing?

They all employ graduates with business degrees, and not an oz of common sense.
A few years back (2008/9) a Stagecoach strategic buyer (diesel buyer) negotiated a price at £x/l for the year the week before the market fell on its arse and pump prices were £x-5%. Apparently he got promoted!

Our ones are worse, they promoted lots of former drivers and inspectors who are totally out of their depth and blame the drivers, so they got the business graduates in amd they all cosy up to each other whilst the whole thing turns to shit.

And the control room are plain nuts.

Me: Control, the kids in Falls Park are bricking the passing traffic.

Control: Service on, driver we have to keep the service going.

A bit later......

Me: Control, I'm going to have to take the bus out of service.

Control: Why? Service on driver.

Me: Because the kids I told you were bricking traffic have put in every fucking window on the nearside of this bus.....

I actually got a disciplinary letter for swearing over the radio.

Nothing for the guy who got 5 windows at something like 1.5k a time broken to maintain a service with 6 people who all claimed for injury, on it.

[Cousin Jack]

Do train and bus purchasing departments get special training on how to make poor decisions, or is it a generic public transport thing?

IME most purchasing departments are pants. One aerospace company got all excited about a very cheap contract until I pointed out it was index linked to a monthly mining index. All mining indices are volatile, and the contract had a sneaky little clause that said that the price goes up with the index, but stays still when the index falls. That particular 5 year contract would have cost us £m.

[The Spin Doctor]

Hmm. There are 22M tonnes of readily extractable lithium on the planet. Hydrogen makes sense in security terms if eg Chile's deposits are mopped up by the Chinese and the other 66M tonnes is too expensive to get at....any country can make hydrogen. It's not just about engine efficiency.

I don't expect hydrogen is going to go away completely.

Keep an eye on Sodium battery technology.

The problem with Hydrogen powered ICE is where we get the Hydrogen from. You have to split it off from something.

In theory, it can be done cleanly by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using renewable electricity from solar and wind power. But that electricity could charge batteries, and unlike the Hydrogen, which requires a brand new transport and storage infrastructure, electricity can be delivered to your door via the grid.

Another 'clean' source of being proposed involves capturing waste CO2 from its production from natural gas, oil or coal, to create a carbon-neutral fuel, but those technologies are untested on the scale required.

Right now, by far and away the cheapest - and thus the most common - method of production to extract it from natural gas, or crack heavier hydrocarbons. And that results in carbon dioxide emissions, simply somewhere other than where the Hydrogen is being burned. This appears to be the Japanese plan - they have agreements with Australia for the land down under to do the dirty work and ship liquified hydrogen to Japan so they can burn it cleanly in their cities. The plan simply locks us into further exploitation of fossil fuels.