When does 'bants' become 'bullying'?

[Horse]

BBC quote Raab as posting on Twitter:

In his resignation statement, published on Twitter, Dominic Raab takes aim at the inquiry, saying: "In setting the threshold for bullying so low, this inquiry has set a dangerous precedent.

ACAS say:

Either:
- offensive, intimidating, malicious or insulting
- an abuse or misuse of power that undermines, humiliates, or causes physical or emotional harm to someone

The bullying might:
- be a regular pattern of behaviour or a one-off incident
- happen face-to-face, on social media, in emails or calls
- happen at work or in other work-related situations
- not always be obvious or noticed by others

Where is / should this threshold be?

NB this isn't a torry-bashing political thread. It relates to any such actions.

Full disclosure (well, partial really): I put in a complaint about bullying (as meeting that ACAS definition) last year. But I appreciate that what I and colleagues put up with was nothing compared to physical abuse that others endure.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I imagine a lot of the problem is that it's easy to portray something as Bullying if you don't have the context. For example, yesterday I replied to one of my colleagues help desk queries with....

"I'm picking on you first because I don't like you, then I'm going after the people who are actually causing a problem."

If you read that out in a transcript you could easily spin is as bullying. Obviously I know the guy well and he gets that I'm taking the piss, but I bet there are a lot of axes to grind in big civil service offices.

[Rockburner]

IME it's when it becomes one way, ie the 'receiver' either can't (for want of being able to respond quickly enough to make it 'fun'), or won't (for not being able to speak up to a senior, or not feeling like they are allowed to).

If you feel like you're risking your job by saying "oh cock off you cock" to a senior cabinet minister when he greets you every morning with "Morning funny face!" * , then it's bullying.

And yes that might sound "weak-minded" to some of you - but that is exactly the type of behaviour that might be mildly irritating the first time, grating the 2nd, bloody moronic the 3rd, and very hard to stomach from then on. That's how bullying develops: it's never one instance: it's a campaign of small actions that act to denigrate the bullied party, and shore up the confidence of the bully.


* hypothetical banter examples, yes the second example is very mild, but to hear that every day for a year and not feel like you could return with something appropriate would soon have any rational person reaching for something easily used as a weapon.

[Mr. Dazzle]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

[Rockburner]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

Nah, I don't get that for a second. You'd have to have skin as thick as rhino-hide and be as unobservant as a blind mole to genuinely not realise that you're being rude and offensive: In fact I just described the average Public School allumni.

[Horse]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

My (and colleagues') situation was with a couple of people from an industry who undertook a long campaign. That included an email which said "to be blunt, I think you are __, __, __ and __ " and naming several of us in a national magazine, attacking our work and ignoring accurate information we sent.

One of those people openly admits to being bolshy.

I wonder how he treats his staff?

[Rockburner]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

My (and colleagues') situation was with a couple of people from an industry who undertook a long campaign. That included an email which said "to be blunt, I think you are __, __, __ and __ " and naming several of us in a national magazine, attacking our work and ignoring accurate information we sent.

One of those people openly admits to being bolshy.

I wonder how he treats his staff?

Behaviour like that is just childish bullying and has no place outside of the nursery play-pen.

[westers151]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

Nah, I don't get that for a second. You'd have to have skin as thick as rhino-hide and be as unobservant as a blind mole to genuinely not realise that you're being rude and offensive: In fact I just described the average Public School allumni.

I dunno, I've come across plenty of senior execs (admittedly in corporate US IT firms), who are "demanding". It's not that they don't care, it's because they are in a results driven world, and they need others to perform; touchy feely goes out the window, and they can become very direct and abrupt. I've not been in the armed services, however I can imagine that's a similar situation.

The trouble is, a lot of people can't handle the direct and abrupt style, and I can see why. If you're not used to it, it can appear to be rude, but it's not meant to be, however "abrupt" and "direct" can be done in a way that's not c**tish, but that's a very fine line, one that's often stepped over.

[Horse]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

One of those people openly admits to being bolshy.

I wonder how he treats his staff?

Behaviour like that is just childish bullying and has no place outside of the nursery play-pen.

It's someone who seems to be building an empire by creating organisations with himself as head honcho.

Then shouting at anyone who he thinks is disagreeing with him because he is right.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I have a simple technique to deal with it, if someone is rude to me I'm rude back, I've cheerfully told managers to feck off when they're rude to me, they soon learn that if they want me to do something to ask how they should, I'd also expect someone to do the same to me if I was rude to them, but I also appreciate that some people aren't 55 year old men who can't afford to say stick your job up your arse.

There are fairly simple rules at work, if you think something is a bit iffy, don't say it, if you do, apologise and try not to do it again, if someone points out to you what you did was wrong, apologise and try not to do it again, basically treat people with respect and own up when you get it wrong.

If you can't get people to do the work without bullying them you're a shit manager and in the wrong job.

[Cousin Jack]

It is a very real problem separating bullying from banter. In the recent past the line was drawn to allow a huge amount of real bullying to pass off as banter, today (IMO) it has swung too far the other way.
As Dazzle said, a relationship can appear to be bullying, but both parties are happy that it is banter. The real problem today (IMO) is that far too many people are looking to be offended, often on behalf of someone else.

[Mussels]

In the olden days if you didn't like your boss you found a new job, it seems a few in the civil service don't like tories in power and are trying to undermine democracy.

[Horse]

In the olden days if you didn't like your boss you found a new job, it seems a few in the civil service don't like tories in power and are trying to undermine democracy.

Ahem. Please see OP

Not a political thread, thanks. If you want that, please start another.

Or I'll shout at you until you cry

[westers151]

In the olden days if you didn't like your boss you found a new job, it seems a few in the civil service don't like tories in power and are trying to undermine democracy.

I think they don't like change, irrespective of who's in power.

[Cousin Jack]

I think they don't like change, irrespective of who's in power.

Indeed they dont. Large organizations have an internal culture that is always resistant to change. The bigger and older, the more resistant.

Stuff like the Home Office or the Foreign Office are very very old and pretty large too.

[dern]

In the olden days if you didn't like your boss you found a new job

In the olden days there were no processes to deal with disrespectful bosses but smart companies have long since woken up to the fact that treating people correctly is the way to retain staff.

it seems a few in the civil service don't like tories in power and are trying to undermine democracy.

Nonsense. Treating people correctly is the way to go. If you can't achieve what you want without treating people respectfully then you've been promoted beyond your ability.

[dern]

When does 'bants' become 'bullying'?... when one person doesn't see it as 'bants'. Basic stuff.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I have no hard data to back this claim up, but I feel like bullying accusations have bene levelled at politicians of all stripes in recetn times?

[Rockburner]

One of those people openly admits to being bolshy.

I wonder how he treats his staff?

Behaviour like that is just childish bullying and has no place outside of the nursery play-pen.

It's someone who seems to be building an empire by creating organisations with himself as head honcho.

Then shouting at anyone who he thinks is disagreeing with him because he thinks he is right.

Corrected that for you.

[Rockburner]

In the same vein, I wonder how many senior people in that situation would not realise their actions are upsetting. If someone doesn't object the first time you might think they're OK with it.

Nah, I don't get that for a second. You'd have to have skin as thick as rhino-hide and be as unobservant as a blind mole to genuinely not realise that you're being rude and offensive: In fact I just described the average Public School allumni.

I dunno, I've come across plenty of senior execs (admittedly in corporate US IT firms), who are "demanding". It's not that they don't care, it's because they are in a results driven world, and they need others to perform; touchy feely goes out the window, and they can become very direct and abrupt. I've not been in the armed services, however I can imagine that's a similar situation.

The trouble is, a lot of people can't handle the direct and abrupt style, and I can see why. If you're not used to it, it can appear to be rude, but it's not meant to be, however "abrupt" and "direct" can be done in a way that's not c**tish, but that's a very fine line, one that's often stepped over.

There's a difference between 'abrupt or direct', and 'offensive': some might see it a a big difference, some might see it as a subtle difference, but it's an important difference.