CBT Booked

[The Spin Doctor]

Though I'm curious why counter-steering isn't taught. Is it omitted from the CBT, but taught during DAS?

Teaching counter-steering was actively discouraged for many years by the DSA. AFAIK, it's now 'teach if you feel you have to because the trainee's not getting round bends' but from chatting with instructors whether you get criticised on CBT seems to depend on the attitude of individual local examiners.

On an organisational level, they held a conference - oh, must be 12 or more years ago now. I got a call from a chap called Terry Friday who was a former Kent Police bike instructor who was the Driving Instructors Association motorcycle rep, so he was going. "You seem to know a lot about this counter-steering!" (He'd been reading my Q&A on the topic on my site www.survivalskills.co.uk) "So what do I need to know?"

So we spent 20 mins going through 'push right, go right', and 'push hard, turn faster' and he rang off.

A couple of nights later, he rang back.... "It works doesn't it?".

So there you have an ex-police instructor and rep for the premier organisation for trainers, and he didn't know about counter-steering.

He rang me back a week or so after that to tell me that North Wales police had given a presentation which was firmly against teaching counter-steering as "it's too complicated for learners". This conclusion was based on their investigation of a fatal crash which happened when a rider was under instruction on counter-steering and lost control on a corner.

So there you have it. For years the police steadfastly opposed it, and if you check the various editions, you'll find it only gets a mention in the newest edition of Roadcraft - and even then they didn't get it quite right.

Incidentally, I've only found that weighting the legs made a significant difference on track. At regular road speeds, I haven't found much need for it. Am I the only one?

I wouldn't say there's 'much need' but it really powers up a swerve - I teach the techniqu e on my Performance:SPORT course, not as an everyday technique but as something you might use to swerve hard, or to tighten the line mid-corner.

[The Spin Doctor]

Whilst i understand and respect your combined years of skill and advanced training lets not overcomplicate things for a novice...... this thread is for Tigs and his CBT and any help he can get from the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering and peg weighting as neither is taught at the level he is looking to be at

<ducks>

It's called thread drift

But if a few more novices were taught how to go round corners from the outset, I might not sell so many Confidence: BUILDER courses to riders who need their confidence rebuilding after failing to get round a bend on their new bike

[Dodgy69]

I would of thought counter steering is not so important at cbt level or at slower speeds, and completely unnecessary at slow monoeuvers. More important at higher speeds when fighting the chiroscopic effect of front wheel.

[Horse]

I would of thought counter steering is not so important at cbt level or at slower speeds, and completely unnecessary at slow monoeuvers. More important at higher speeds when fighting the chiroscopic effect of front wheel.

CBT trainees have to go on-road for two hours. As some point they're likely to encounter a roundabout, bend or junction.

And gyros have little to do with it, it's out-tracking.

[The Spin Doctor]

I would of thought counter steering is not so important at cbt level or at slower speeds, and completely unnecessary at slow monoeuvers. More important at higher speeds when fighting the chiroscopic effect of front wheel.

It's counter-steering that gets the bike turning for the U-turn and Fig-8 that are both part of CBT... whether the rider realises it or not.

Just wait till you watch someone trying to steer 'car fashion' by turning the bars INTO the turn... and wobble along in a more-or-less straight line and into the chain link fence!

[Horse]

And you can use it when stopping, to determine which foot to put down.

[Dodgy69]

The only time I've ever had to "consciously input" CS is when at speed, and then not very often. Maybe this is why it is cbt exempt.

[Horse]

The only time I've ever had to "consciously input" CS is when at speed, and then not very often. Maybe this is why it is cbt exempt.

'Conscious' is the key aspect. For many riders, they won't ever need to consciously 'steer'. Whether they counter-steer without thought, or 'just lean' - and accidentally apply pressure to the bars, doesn't matter, they succeed.

But the problem comes for those riders who when under pressure - tightening bend, swerving - don't have that instinctive reaction. Then they 'steer'. And can't understand why the bike won't do what they want and expect.

[Tigs]

So , I know this is not relevant to me - as I''m a novice. But, I understand the principle of counter steering.. my question is do you apply this when doing the figure 8 , U turn and swerve aspects of mod 1?

I cant get how you do the swerve without clipping the cone.. but - I've not tried it yet!!

[Horse]

First off, head for the gaps. Works on the road too: rather than look at a pothole you need to avoid, look at the bit of good tarmac. As soon as you're heading that way, look ahead and choose the next point, and repeat.

If you look 50cm to the side of the cone, then ride over that surface, you won't- can't -collide with the cone.

'How' you use it for 8 & U isn't a simple answer. At slower speeds the amount of pressure (and so front wheel out tracking) is so minimal that you will hardly notice it. In fact, as I said earlier, by just moving your shoulders slightly sideways and 'leaning' from side to side you will accidentally apply enough pressure to weave through a slalom.

For a U, the initiation of the turn will be a single press. Then the front wheel will almost 'flop' into the turn (and so why you need the relaxed 'egg' grip, to allow this) and you need to be looking through the U back the opposite direction- where you want to be - and driving it there.

[Scootabout]

I've seen the expression "positive steering" used instead of counter steering. I think it might have been in the IAM book, 'How to be a better rider'. Maybe that's a better expression, in the sense that 'counter steering' sounds complicated?

[Horse]

I've seen the expression "positive steering" used instead of counter steering. I think it might have been in the IAM book, 'How to be a better rider'. Maybe that's a better expression, in the sense that 'counter steering' sounds complicated?

Or just 'steering'?

Counter-steering as a name is a useful reminder that it's counter-intuitive - eg for anyone used to a car - and the opposite of 'direct steer', like a car or trike.

But your right about sounding complicated, when it's really very simple.
Press left, go left
Press quickly, lean quickly
Press longer, lean further

[Hot_Air]

I find it unhelpful to concern myself with counter-steering for manoeuvres at a walking-pace like the U-turn. I'm more focused on looking where I want to go!

But at regular road speeds, I'll counter-steer to get round corners.

I've seen the expression "positive steering" used instead of counter steering. I think it might have been in the IAM book, 'How to be a better rider'. Maybe that's a better expression, in the sense that 'counter steering' sounds complicated?

Yes, "positive steering" is the IAM's term for counter-steering from How to Be a Better Rider. Jon Taylor (who's taught me) was responsible for adding a lot of good sense to this book, including steering. Aside from a police riding career, Jon was a racer (double Bemsee club champion) and Nürburgring instructor. And his expertise was invaluable for this IAM book (it's way better than the crap old IAM book that preceded it).

[Horse]

I find it unhelpful to concern myself with counter-steering for manoeuvres at a walking-pace like the U-turn. I'm more focused on looking where I want to go!

One of the skills many riders don't have is control over stopping. Might sound daft, but ask a few riders to first stop with one foot down, then again with the other - but keeping both feet up until stopped or just about.

Often, riders don't decide, they just let the bike slow and wobble, or wave a leg about to encourage it to lean, or plonk both feet down.

A very gentle counter-steer just as you stop will lean the bike. Probably irrelevant on a 125, but stopping a tall bike on a camber? See at 0:38 in the SF video.


As I said, the movement of the bars for a slalom is almost imperceptible, mid-way the front wheel will already probably be tracking in the direction of the counter-steer, it just needs a small amount extra.

You might not concern yourself with it for a U, but without it how does the bike start to turn? Problems come when riders consciously try to direct steer.

You'll also need some drive to stop the bike toppling, that's part of the 'package' too.

[Hot_Air]

On YouTube, Reg Local does some good videos and one of his latest covers counter-steering. I've not watched it yet but here's the video: YouTube: How to counter-steer

One of the skills many riders don't have is control over stopping. Might sound daft, but ask a few riders to first stop with one foot down, then again with the other - but keeping both feet up until stopped or just about.

Well, I've done all sorts of slow speed stuff including how to stop (both when dirt biking and as part of an advanced road course). Counter-steering never came into it. However, I'm open minded and happy to experiment with your advice; I'll let you know if I remain upright

[Horse]

Well, I've done all sorts of slow speed stuff including how to stop (both when dirt biking and as part of an advanced road course). Counter-steering never came into it. However, I'm open minded and happy to experiment with your advice; I'll let you know if I remain upright

Please try and see how you get on.

Just as you're coming to a halt, at the point you're about to nip in the clutch and give the brakes the final squeeze, a gentle -brief - press and release (don't hold the pressure on).

Caveat: put your foot down if you think the whole lot's going to topple


Re Reg's video. He talks about body movement (and not just to initiate the turn). If you ever get a chance, ride a BMW C1. You're strapped in - so no body movement. Your feet are forward - so no weighting footrests. There's no petrol tank to 'push against'. That only leaves the 'bars.

He also talks about pushing 'down'. OK, that sort of works as a reminder that steering = lean. Actually, though, the bars are bolted to the forks - which will only allow back-forward movement, so it's important not to take that reminder as an action and really try to push 'down'. Also, if you have a relaxed riding position, with your forearms parallel(ish) to the ground, that push (or 'press') forward is easier to achieve.

[dayglo jim]

So , I know this is not relevant to me - as I''m a novice. But, I understand the principle of counter steering.. my question is do you apply this when doing the figure 8 , U turn and swerve aspects of mod 1?

I cant get how you do the swerve without clipping the cone.. but - I've not tried it yet!!

Best not to overthink it as you will only be more tense. We used to focus more on Where You Look Is Where You Go (with the usual caveat about target fixation) to avoid riders looking at their bars to see how they steered. If you look at the cone you are very likely to hit it.
The book does not explicitly say to use the rear brake (but it is less likely to tip you off at low speed when turning), keep a steady throttle and slip the clutch.

[Tigs]

I think it was the break that I was missing ... in my 'control' - i didn't use it at all - I was also turning my head not my shoulders - so was looking left - not back at my wheel making the 8 impossible..

It's frustrating me I have to wait over a week to get back on a bike to try again. I would do so much better if i could try little and often!

I have to go try on a pushbike

[Bigyin]

Best not to overthink it as you will only be more tense. We used to focus more on Where You Look Is Where You Go (with the usual caveat about target fixation) to avoid riders looking at their bars to see how they steered. If you look at the cone you are very likely to hit it.
The book does not explicitly say to use the rear brake (but it is less likely to tip you off at low speed when turning), keep a steady throttle and slip the clutch.

Bloke today focused on the cones on his first attempt at the figure 8, as soon as he hit one we had a chat and managed to get him away from looking at objects and the rest of the exercises were sorted as he understood and now managed to avoid target fixation.

I think it was the break that I was missing ... in my 'control' - i didn't use it at all - I was also turning my head not my shoulders - so was looking left - not back at my wheel making the 8 impossible..

It's frustrating me I have to wait over a week to get back on a bike to try again. I would do so much better if i could try little and often!

I have to go try on a pushbike

Tigs, you shouldnt be turning your shoulders as that will make the bike unstable, just turn your head and use your eyes to look where you want to be ...... when you go past the outside marker cone and turn our head onto your shoulder you can see the mid point of the 2 centre crossover cones. Thats the furthest you have to look as the turn then opens and your vision should focus on the gap between the 2 cones and then repeat on the other side.

As Jim said above, "busy revs and slip the clutch" to have the main control and keep the bike upright with no leaning into the turns and if needed a gentle dab on the REAR brake just to keep the speed down low if the bike starts to move to fast. Its about doing the exercise slowly and under full control

Remember, what you did was a taster session so when you go back for the actual CBT you are now already ahead of the curve and have already had a go at most of it so it wont be new, just polishing what you have already tried

[Horse]

Tigs, you shouldnt be turning your shoulders as that will make the bike unstable, just turn your head

Go back a couple of days for a post on this.

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