COTA MotoGP

[Yorick]

I've been learning Spanish since September. When the 3 podium finishers were chatting in Spanish before going out to the podium I got about 90% of what Quartararo said, about 50% of Marini (I think it was his accent) and about 10% of Rins, the Spanish speak like words are fired from a machine gun.

I enjoyed the racing.

I'm the same. I can "hear" the French words but Spanish is just a noise blur.

[Skub]

Damn. Pecco is trying hard to beat himself,isn't he. He was the fastest and most consistent all weekend,then...

Rins tamed the Honda on one of his favourite circuits and deserves every bit of credit. A prime example of the rider making the difference. Where were the other Hondas? Munching gravel.

[Yorick]

Damn. Pecco is trying hard to beat himself,isn't he. He was the fastest and most consistent all weekend,then...

Rins tamed the Honda on one of his favourite circuits and deserves every bit of credit. A prime example of the rider making the difference. Where were the other Hondas? Munching gravel.

Rins broke the lap record 3 times and Pecco saw that and pushed too hard.

[westers151]

Peco was a tool and should have settled for second. Rins isn't going to be a championship contender on the Honda; sure he'll do well at some races, but not always, and Peco should have realised that and let him go by.

I bet Tardozzi gave him a right good verbal kicking.

[weeksy]

Peco was a tool and should have settled for second. Rins isn't going to be a championship contender on the Honda; sure he'll do well at some races, but not always, and Peco should have realised that and let him go by.

I bet Tardozzi gave him a right good verbal kicking.

:Yeah, convincing the current MotoGP world champ he needs to slow down a bit is what Tardozzi was thinking... I'm sure Peco was thinking the same

He's the best of the best with ultimate confidence, belief in himself and the bike.... He wasn't over the limit, in the same way the other god knows how many crashers were not over the weekend. The limit wasn't always the limit... it seemed to well, move. One time you go through the corner and it's fine, the next minute it's not.

[westers151]

Peco was a tool and should have settled for second. Rins isn't going to be a championship contender on the Honda; sure he'll do well at some races, but not always, and Peco should have realised that and let him go by.

I bet Tardozzi gave him a right good verbal kicking.

:Yeah, convincing the current MotoGP world champ he needs to slow down a bit is what Tardozzi was thinking... I'm sure Peco was thinking the same

He's the best of the best with ultimate confidence, belief in himself and the bike.... He wasn't over the limit, in the same way the other god knows how many crashers were not over the weekend. The limit wasn't always the limit... it seemed to well, move. One time you go through the corner and it's fine, the next minute it's not.

Nope, he did what he does best and makes stupid mistakes when they're not necessary; that's what Tardozzi would be kicking him for, not to slow down, but to think.

As for not being over the limit, he must have been otherwise he wouldn't have crashed; you don't crash if you're not over the limit (excluding someone else taking you out/mechanical)

[mangocrazy]

Nope, he did what he does best and makes stupid mistakes when they're not necessary;

Which does beg the question - when is it necessary to make stupid mistakes?

As for not being over the limit, he must have been otherwise he wouldn't have crashed; you don't crash if you're not over the limit (excluding someone else taking you out/mechanical)

I think weeksy's point was that 'the limit' wasn't fixed, it was changing all the time. After the race Pecco said he wasn't pushing, he was managing the race, but he still crashed and wondered if the bike wasn't providing reliable feedback at the limit. He'd prefer a bike that wasn't quite as 'perfect', but gave better feedback.

[westers151]

Nope, he did what he does best and makes stupid mistakes when they're not necessary;

Which does beg the question - when is it necessary to make stupid mistakes?

As for not being over the limit, he must have been otherwise he wouldn't have crashed; you don't crash if you're not over the limit (excluding someone else taking you out/mechanical)

I think weeksy's point was that 'the limit' wasn't fixed, it was changing all the time. After the race Pecco said he wasn't pushing, he was managing the race, but he still crashed and wondered if the bike wasn't providing reliable feedback at the limit. He'd prefer a bike that wasn't quite as 'perfect', but gave better feedback.

He's done that twice now - this race and the last race the bike has suddenly crashed when he was doing exactly the same as he did the last lap. Funny that no other Ducati rider has experienced that, or is saying the same thing. Nobody else fell at that corner.

Peco has history for making silly mistakes; last year he owned up them, and towards the back end of the season it looked like he'd learnt not to make them. However, a new year and he's making silly mistakes, but as he's world champion it's the fault of the bike, despite it being the best on the grid and none of the other 7 riders experiencing mysterious crashes.

Maybe the track was changing, but Rins didn"t crash, so the conclusion is Peco can't read a changeable track.

Not sure why everyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt when it's clear he has messed up.

[weeksy]

Nope, he did what he does best and makes stupid mistakes when they're not necessary;

Which does beg the question - when is it necessary to make stupid mistakes?

As for not being over the limit, he must have been otherwise he wouldn't have crashed; you don't crash if you're not over the limit (excluding someone else taking you out/mechanical)

I think weeksy's point was that 'the limit' wasn't fixed, it was changing all the time. After the race Pecco said he wasn't pushing, he was managing the race, but he still crashed and wondered if the bike wasn't providing reliable feedback at the limit. He'd prefer a bike that wasn't quite as 'perfect', but gave better feedback.

He's done that twice now - this race and the last race the bike has suddenly crashed when he was doing exactly the same as he did the last lap. Funny that no other Ducati rider has experienced that, or is saying the same thing. Nobody else fell at that corner.

Peco has history for making silly mistakes; last year he owned up them, and towards the back end of the season it looked like he'd learnt not to make them. However, a new year and he's making silly mistakes, but as he's world champion it's the fault of the bike, despite it being the best on the grid and none of the other 7 riders experiencing mysterious crashes.

Maybe the track was changing, but Rins didn"t crash, so the conclusion is Peco can't read a changeable track.

Not sure why everyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt when it's clear he has messed up.

Because we disagree with you ? Or i certainly do anyway. The 'limit' is such a finite amount nowdays that it doesn't mean you're over what was the limit the lap before... the track can go into shade and lose 2-3deg due to that, you can be 6" on a different line which is fractionally different or your tyre could have cooled/heated differently. Hence why every lap this weekend you had Hodgson "that went REALLY early"... "that was unusual"..You really think that everyone who crashed made an actual mistake ? Or is it that close to the limits now that it's not actually a mistake, but circumstance ?

[westers151]

Which does beg the question - when is it necessary to make stupid mistakes?

I think weeksy's point was that 'the limit' wasn't fixed, it was changing all the time. After the race Pecco said he wasn't pushing, he was managing the race, but he still crashed and wondered if the bike wasn't providing reliable feedback at the limit. He'd prefer a bike that wasn't quite as 'perfect', but gave better feedback.

He's done that twice now - this race and the last race the bike has suddenly crashed when he was doing exactly the same as he did the last lap. Funny that no other Ducati rider has experienced that, or is saying the same thing. Nobody else fell at that corner.

Peco has history for making silly mistakes; last year he owned up them, and towards the back end of the season it looked like he'd learnt not to make them. However, a new year and he's making silly mistakes, but as he's world champion it's the fault of the bike, despite it being the best on the grid and none of the other 7 riders experiencing mysterious crashes.

Maybe the track was changing, but Rins didn"t crash, so the conclusion is Peco can't read a changeable track.

Not sure why everyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt when it's clear he has messed up.

Because we disagree with you ? Or i certainly do anyway. The 'limit' is such a finite amount nowdays that it doesn't mean you're over what was the limit the lap before... the track can go into shade and lose 2-3deg due to that, you can be 6" on a different line which is fractionally different or your tyre could have cooled/heated differently. Hence why every lap this weekend you had Hodgson "that went REALLY early"... "that was unusual"..You really think that everyone who crashed made an actual mistake ? Or is it that close to the limits now that it's not actually a mistake, but circumstance ?

From the Oxford dictionary:
Mistake - an act or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

Show me how any of this weekends crashers (where the rider wasn't taken out, or a mechanical), didn't make a judgement that was wrong and I'll hold my hands up and I say I'm a fool, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Tyre cooled down a bd rider crashed = they rode slightly differently, causing the tyre to cool, and they misjudged the impact of it = mistake.

Track condition changed slightly and crashed = misjudged the conditions = crashed (it was dry all weekend at COTA, and race day was the same temperature as practice, so they had plenty of time to figure out how the track was reacting).

6 inches wider than your normal line (which is a country mile for those guys considering how pinpoint accurate they are) and you crash = misjudging that the part of the track you're now on will act the same as the line you normally take = mistake.

Riders can blame evrything they want to, but the end result is they made an error of judgement = a mistake. They are, after all, paid to walk that fine line between crashing and not crashing as they have the skills to operate in that environment. The very best ones operate in it week in and week out judging it perfectly. Right now the jury is out on whether Pecco can do that - I thought he'd got into that position at the end of last year, but two needless crashes throw that view into doubt.

[weeksy]

He's done that twice now - this race and the last race the bike has suddenly crashed when he was doing exactly the same as he did the last lap. Funny that no other Ducati rider has experienced that, or is saying the same thing. Nobody else fell at that corner.

Peco has history for making silly mistakes; last year he owned up them, and towards the back end of the season it looked like he'd learnt not to make them. However, a new year and he's making silly mistakes, but as he's world champion it's the fault of the bike, despite it being the best on the grid and none of the other 7 riders experiencing mysterious crashes.

Maybe the track was changing, but Rins didn"t crash, so the conclusion is Peco can't read a changeable track.

Not sure why everyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt when it's clear he has messed up.

Because we disagree with you ? Or i certainly do anyway. The 'limit' is such a finite amount nowdays that it doesn't mean you're over what was the limit the lap before... the track can go into shade and lose 2-3deg due to that, you can be 6" on a different line which is fractionally different or your tyre could have cooled/heated differently. Hence why every lap this weekend you had Hodgson "that went REALLY early"... "that was unusual"..You really think that everyone who crashed made an actual mistake ? Or is it that close to the limits now that it's not actually a mistake, but circumstance ?

From the Oxford dictionary:
Mistake - an act or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

Show me how any of this weekends crashers (where the rider wasn't taken out, or a mechanical), didn't make a judgement that was wrong and I'll hold my hands up and I say I'm a fool, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Tyre cooled down a bd rider crashed = they rode slightly differently, causing the tyre to cool, and they misjudged the impact of it = mistake.

Track condition changed slightly and crashed = misjudged the conditions = crashed (it was dry all weekend at COTA, and race day was the same temperature as practice, so they had plenty of time to figure out how the track was reacting).

6 inches wider than your normal line (which is a country mile for those guys considering how pinpoint accurate they are) and you crash = misjudging that the part of the track you're now on will act the same as the line you normally take = mistake.

Riders can blame evrything they want to, but the end result is they made an error of judgement = a mistake. They are, after all, paid to walk that fine line between crashing and not crashing as they have the skills to operate in that environment. The very best ones operate in it week in and week out judging it perfectly. Right now the jury is out on whether Pecco can do that - I thought he'd got into that position at the end of last year, but two needless crashes throw that view into doubt.

I don't think anything i say would change your mind, so i'm not going to try... either way, i completely disagree...

You're now telling me that the current world champion is not the very best at judging the fine line, but the very fact he's the world champion currently, completely disagrees with that statement.

So there's very little point in me debating it as you've completely made your mind up on it.

[Yorick]

The winner is the one who gets closest to the edge.
That's usually Pecco.
But he goes over the edge more than others, simply because he has less room for error.

[mangocrazy]

If Pecco had been the only rider to crash, or one of a few, then I'd say it was 100% the rider's fault. But no less than nine riders crashed during the course of the race:

Binder - tucked the front
A Marquez - taken out by J Martin
J Martin - lost the front at turn 3
A Espargaro - faulty rear ride height device caused crash
J Mir - lost the front
T Nakagami - crashed while P9
J Miller - lost the front, couldn't say why
F Bagnaia - lost the front while leading
S Bradl - lost the front at turn 13

So many riders crashed that all the finishers were in the points. This is unusual. So I'd say that something other than the usual testosterone-fuelled (over)confidence was at play here. The thin line between success and failure was much thinner than usual is the only way I can put it.

[westers151]

I don't think anything i say would change your mind, so i'm not going to try... either way, i completely disagree...

You're now telling me that the current world champion is not the very best at judging the fine line, but the very fact he's the world champion currently, completely disagrees with that statement.

So there's very little point in me debating it as you've completely made your mind up on it.

There is a strong argument to be made that he was lucky to win the championship last year. If Fabio hadn't thrown away a 90 point lead (due to some stupid mistakes that put him in a position where he couldn't relax a bit, not over ride the bike as much, and bring home points in every round), Peco would not be world champion. However, that's an "if, but, and maybe" statement, so Peco is world champion, but the jury is out as to whether he's a convincing champion that can win it irrespective of what the rest of the field do. Hence why I view his champion status in that light, much in the same way that I view Mirs championship winning year as a "one hit wonder" (and only because he was Mr consistent whilst all around him did their best to try and not win the championship).

As for his judgement being questionable, there were numerous times last year when Peco asked for Rossi's advice (mainly about tyres), only to ignore it, and his decision (judgement) was proved wrong, and Rossi's proved right, hence he does have form for it.

Hence I guess you're right, there's nothing at the moment that you can say that will convince me that he's currently head and shoulders above the rest of the field, or that his judgment is 100% correct, but equally I've not dismissed him as rubbish - far from it. When's he's on form, he's on form. I'd just like to see him be on form consistently, and then I can forgive the odd mistake.

[weeksy]

there's nothing at the moment that you can say that will convince me that he's currently head and shoulders above the rest of the field, or that his judgment is 100% correct,

I never even remotely said that... not even a tiny bit.

[Yorick]

It certainly makes the championship more fun

[westers151]

If Pecco had been the only rider to crash, or one of a few, then I'd say it was 100% the rider's fault. But no less than nine riders crashed during the course of the race:

Binder - tucked the front
A Marquez - taken out by J Martin
J Martin - lost the front at turn 3
A Espargaro - faulty rear ride height device caused crash
J Mir - lost the front
T Nakagami - crashed while P9
J Miller - lost the front, couldn't say why
F Bagnaia - lost the front while leading
S Bradl - lost the front at turn 13

So many riders crashed that all the finishers were in the points. This is unusual. So I'd say that something other than the usual testosterone-fuelled (over)confidence was at play here. The thin line between success and failure was much thinner than usual is the only way I can put it.

Apart from Asparagus and Marquez (as their crashes were caused by other factors), all the rest are the usual suspects for throwing it down the road on a fairly regular basis, with the exception of Mir, but I think we'll start to see him crash more regularly on the Honda. And from watching the replays of those crashes there was plenty of evidence as to why it happened (usually in too deep with too much trail braking).

You can blame the track conditions, or whatever, but that's just making excuses for a mistake. Sometimes riders (like Miller) don't know why they crashed, but back in the garage when they look at the data there will be something that points to the reason. It's not like the old days where very little telemetry (if any) was used and so you could crash, genuinely not know what caused it, but had zero data to try and understand what went on. Those were the crashes that riders hated as they never learnt the cause of the crash, and thus what they should do differently to try and not do it again.

I know I'm coming across harshly about all this, especially as they're only human, and we do make mistakes, but these guys are paid (very well) to find a way to dance that wafer thin line between crashing and not crashing, so when they make mistakes regularly, my patience grows thin with them.

[westers151]

there's nothing at the moment that you can say that will convince me that he's currently head and shoulders above the rest of the field, or that his judgment is 100% correct,

I never even remotely said that... not even a tiny bit.

I don't think anything i say would change your mind, so i'm not going to try... either way, i completely disagree...

I'm scratching my head at why you think you didn't say anything about changing my mind, because where I come from, if someone thinks one thing, and you convince them to think another thing, that usually constitutes "changing your mind".

[Skub]

I think at the moment the number one plate is proving to be heavy for Pecco.

[Yorick]

Looking at these odds, a sneaky tenner on Rins looks good

https://www.oddschecker.com/es/motor/mo ... ign=uksite