Abrasion resistance

[Horse]

To be honest, I think the only ones I've ever heard of was the BMW set of about 15-20 years ago. Does your set eventually get sodden? The only comparison I have is waterproof gloves, where the leather eventually does a sponge impression.

If it's an older suit, have you upgraded the armour?

What's your non-mainstay, and how do you decide on relative benefits/ protection?

[Hot_Air]

Yep. As it's a suit from the Middle Ages, I've upgraded the armour. The original stuff was SAS-Tec (top quality and lasted years) but now I've fitted CE2 protectors covering the maximum surface area, plus a coccyx protector.

My suit has never got sodden, but it's Gore-Tex Leather Laminate; Gore no longer makes it. The modern equivalent is CORIUM+ material that Rukka Coriace and Aerostich Transit suits use. Unfortunately, they're eye-wateringly expensive, and I don't know how well the Halverssons equivalent compares. Held's Clip-In waterproofing system for leathers looks good but I've no clue about the price.

What's your non-mainstay, and how do you decide on relative benefits/ protection?

My alternative – for the famous British heatwave – is Keprotec clobber. It too is prehistoric, and I've upgraded the armour to large-surface-area-coverage CE2 stuff (not forgetting ye olde tailbone). I was so concerned about the age that I asked Hideout to check it over; they reckoned it had another 10+ years of life in it!

[Hot_Air]

I've seen the results of two low-speed crashes in top-of-the-range Dainese kit - one Max Biaggi replica suit, another a Scott Russell. Both suits burst seams open in low speed crashes. My buddy Keith crashed turning right at lights (I suspect petrol as he couldn't find anything on the surface by the time he'd recovered his wits enough to look) and an instructor buddy Ian swerved into a field avoiding a car backing out of a driveway from behind a hedge on a blind corner. Both crashes were probably sub 30 mph. The Scott Russell replica boots and gloves also failed.

Some Dainese stuff is excellent. But you have to know your Italian onions to pick out which garments will protect you better than tissue paper. Full-grain leathers, confusingly called D-Skin 2.0 in Dainese parlance, score highly in MotoCAP tests. Tutu leathers score poorly.

Dainese seems uniquely crap at safety standards. It’s frustrating because its the clothing that fits me best (I’m tall, dark and Italian handsome - a cross I have to bear ). But virtually all Dainese textiles have a paltry A-rating. It’s got textile jackets costing around a grand with only an A-rating and Level 1 armour. And most of its back protectors are only Central Back, not Full Back.

What about Alpinestars? It was Dainese’s partner-in-crime to lobby against stricter safety standards, but the Asolo-based company has (finally) embraced Conformité Européenne. Unlike Dainese, Astars’ race leathers are usually AAA-rated, and some of its gloves are among the very few to achieve CE Level 2. Like Spidi, Alpinestars’ website is clear about each garment’s CE rating – no Dainese opacity here. For me to return as a customer, Dainese needs to catch up with the other two Italian stallions.

[Horse]

Not read it, but it might help increase the knowledge base:

https://investigativeresearch.org/the-d ... shes-2020/

The Dynamics Of Motorcycle Crashes – 2020

The analysis of a global survey of 1578 motorcyclists who responded from 30 countries in Europe, the USA, Asia, Australia and South America and in eight languages in 2019 has been published in a comprehensive report.

Riders of motorcycles, scooters and mopeds who had been involved in a collision over the last ten years were invited to take part in the survey which looked at the dynamics of motorcycle crashes.

The riders who replied to the survey came from a varied age range, motorcycling experience, as well as depth of skills and training.

The new research presented in the report, most importantly involved riders bringing their personal experience and their expertise beyond that of simple academia. Riders understand motorcycling in way quite different than that of academia, where statistical analyses of large databases such as police reports and hospital records has displaced research that requires in depth crash scene investigative knowledge.

The riders’ crash details which were provided through the responses to the questions as well as the comments they offered, brought those stories of personal experiences which included treatment of their injuries, pillion riders and the dynamics of their crash, that in their own words allowed a deeper insight into the dynamics of crashes and the circumstances. These could not have been captured in a usual ‘tick box’ survey.

[The Spin Doctor]

Some Dainese stuff is excellent. But you have to know your Italian onions to pick out which garments will protect you better than tissue paper. Full-grain leathers, confusingly called D-Skin 2.0 in Dainese parlance, score highly in MotoCAP tests. Tutu leathers score poorly.

Dainese seems uniquely crap at safety standards. It’s frustrating because its the clothing that fits me best (I’m tall, dark and Italian handsome - a cross I have to bear ). But virtually all Dainese textiles have a paltry A-rating. It’s got textile jackets costing around a grand with only an A-rating and Level 1 armour. And most of its back protectors are only Central Back, not Full Back.

What about Alpinestars? It was Dainese’s partner-in-crime to lobby against stricter safety standards, but the Asolo-based company has (finally) embraced Conformité Européenne. Unlike Dainese, Astars’ race leathers are usually AAA-rated, and some of its gloves are among the very few to achieve CE Level 2. Like Spidi, Alpinestars’ website is clear about each garment’s CE rating – no Dainese opacity here. For me to return as a customer, Dainese needs to catch up with the other two Italian stallions.

It's about time they got serious, both of them. I have some mid-80s Alpinestar boots from when they were made of PROPER leather, but they are as soft to wear as a glove. Only bike boot I could go walking in, but zero impact protection. The next model along was the first to use a synthetic leather and they fell apart on impact - couriers wouldn't touch them.

[The Spin Doctor]

Not read it, but it might help increase the knowledge base:

https://investigativeresearch.org/the-d ... shes-2020/

The Dynamics Of Motorcycle Crashes – 2020

The analysis of a global survey of 1578 motorcyclists who responded from 30 countries in Europe, the USA, Asia, Australia and South America and in eight languages in 2019 has been published in a comprehensive report.

Riders of motorcycles, scooters and mopeds who had been involved in a collision over the last ten years were invited to take part in the survey which looked at the dynamics of motorcycle crashes.

The riders who replied to the survey came from a varied age range, motorcycling experience, as well as depth of skills and training.

The new research presented in the report, most importantly involved riders bringing their personal experience and their expertise beyond that of simple academia. Riders understand motorcycling in way quite different than that of academia, where statistical analyses of large databases such as police reports and hospital records has displaced research that requires in depth crash scene investigative knowledge.

The riders’ crash details which were provided through the responses to the questions as well as the comments they offered, brought those stories of personal experiences which included treatment of their injuries, pillion riders and the dynamics of their crash, that in their own words allowed a deeper insight into the dynamics of crashes and the circumstances. These could not have been captured in a usual ‘tick box’ survey.

Thanks... downloaded - looks like I have some bedtime reading to do.

[Horse]

Ballester OC, et al. 2019. Analysis of trunk impact conditions in motorcycle road accidents based on epidemiological, accidentological data and multibody simulations. Accident Analysis & Prevention. Volume 127, June 2019, Pages 223-230. doi: 10.1016/j.aap.2019.03.006

I haven't tried hunting it down. Edit; all pay per view options only. But, from using the title to search, there is a French paper collating outcomes from both real crashes and crash tests using PMHS (post mortem human subjects)!

This study has performed evaluation of the current airbag jackets found on the market. The airbag jackets
seem to provide limited protection from a threshold speed which can be estimated to an impact around to 30-40km/h but these speeds differ with the impact configuration (direct impact against an obstacle or ground fall). This level of protection can be considered as important since the impact of a human against an obstacle at this range of speed is particularly strong and concern high levels of energy.

[Hot_Air]

I have some bedtime reading to do.

More bedtime reading? The development of titanium and aluminum plates to protect against rolling

[The Spin Doctor]

I have some bedtime reading to do.

More bedtime reading? The development of titanium and aluminum plates to protect against rolling

You can of course get a very hard plastic that slides... guess what you wear on your knees?

Years ago I knew the guy who set up Wiz sliders. They marketed a very hard plastic slider which some racers liked but some road riders complained 'didn't look worn enough'

I'd say it's more market differentiation than anything else.

[Hot_Air]

guess what you wear on your knees?

I wear knee warmers (who doesn't?) under my leathers to improve conspicuity

[Horse]

Long Way [clothing wind] Up?

https://www.motolegends.com/long-way-up ... eviewvideo

Belstaff Long Way Up jacket in dark olive
£1250.00

Apparently only manages to achieve:
AA certified under EN17092

[Hot_Air]

Ah, but you forget that Ewan McGregor can use the Force to stay safe

£1,250, you say? It’s a bargain for AA-rated protection. For similar money, the Dainese D-Air Carve Master 2 jacket achieves a paltry A-rating. But at least it comes with Level 2 limb armour.

Also, I think the (£1,300 ) Dainese Antarctica jacket is A-rated too. And it comes with lowly Level 1 elbow and shoulder armour to add insult to abrasion injury. Have you seen the MotoCAP results for Dainese textiles? They show that price and protection aren't related. At around £200, RST's Adventure 3 jacket (AA-rated) achieves far better results for impact protection and abrasion resistance.

Isn’t a lot of Rukka clobber only A-rated too? (I guess MotoCAP ain't never gonna test Rukka, unfortunately.)

[Horse]

Ah, but you forget that Ewan McGregor can use the Force to stay safe

IIRC from the article, he wore a waxed cotton jacket

[Supermofo]

Listening to the Front End Chatter podcast the other day MFG mentioned that he'd been chatting to RST who have been doing a lot of work on their kit getting it rated and publishing the result (to be applauded). Whoever it was he was speaking to (I can't remember) said that textile kit broadly will get a max of AA as in RST's experience above that starts making it too uncomfortable to wear. He also said and I found this interesting that in their (RST's) experience the tests didn't necessarily mirror real world crashes, so that whilst a test/level was a good thing, it wasn't the be all end all from what they have seen.

[Horse]

Very simply, I'd guess that the majority (Bigyin excepted) don't slide too far before they hit something.

I don't know how AA & AAA compare to the previous CE, but there were plenty of manufacturers able to achieve that when they wanted to (that said, I've not worn any of them, so have no idea on comfort etc).

[The Spin Doctor]

Listening to the Front End Chatter podcast the other day MFG mentioned that he'd been chatting to RST who have been doing a lot of work on their kit getting it rated and publishing the result (to be applauded). Whoever it was he was speaking to (I can't remember) said that textile kit broadly will get a max of AA as in RST's experience above that starts making it too uncomfortable to wear. He also said and I found this interesting that in their (RST's) experience the tests didn't necessarily mirror real world crashes, so that whilst a test/level was a good thing, it wasn't the be all end all from what they have seen.

Kate Jennings talks about Hideout's new textile kit.

[The Spin Doctor]

Very simply, I'd guess that the majority (Bigyin excepted) don't slide too far before they hit something.

I don't know how AA & AAA compare to the previous CE, but there were plenty of manufacturers able to achieve that when they wanted to (that said, I've not worn any of them, so have no idea on comfort etc).

Personal communication from Paul Varnsverry:

"Even EN 17092 AAA is lower than the original EN 13595 Level 1 requirements - by at least 30% in terms of tear strength and over 70% in terms of abrasion resistance (the latter calculations made by Dr Chris Hurren himself)."

The Aldi Level 1 certified kit just felt like a regular textile jacket. And the Scott CE-approved jacket is a bit heavier and a tad warm in the hottest summer weather - but nice and toasty in colder weather.

[Hot_Air]

Yep, I guess tests aren't everything: it's gonna depend what you land on. A 30 mph glide along ordinary tarmac isn't like a slide on Shellgrip. But independent tests like MotoCAP, and CE standards, are the best we've got to go on. What else have we got?

As well as tests, I've listened to the people who've repaired lots of crashed and bloodied kit: Kate at Hideout and Chris at Nine Lives. Independently, they came to the same abrasion conclusion. When he did high mileage, Chris said he wore leathers through winter for safety (waterproofs on top). And Kate has horror stories of road riders whose kit abraded through, resulting in permanent loss of the use of a limb.

textile kit broadly will get a max of AA as in RST's experience above that starts making it too uncomfortable to wear.

While I applaud RST for being quick off the safety block with the new CE ratings, I disagree about making it uncomfortable to wear. I've had textile kit that passed the original (stricter than AAA) Level 2: a Scott Leathers New Road jacket. It was my 'go to' jacket for many years. And it was extremely comfy.

Also, has anyone from RST tried on one of Hideout's textile Hi-Pro jackets? I have. And the Hi-Pro jacket was (to my surprise) lighter and comfier than any 4-season jacket I've owned. Yet Hi-Pro textiles easily surpasses AAA to hit the dizzy heights of the CE Level 2 PPE. Others have managed it too (e.g. Spidi's Ergo 365 Pro).

While Hideout is in another price league from RST, it shows what's possible. And Scott Leathers textile clobber is in RST's price range.

[Supermofo]

While Hideout is in another price league from RST, it shows what's possible

I thought that part was the unspoken part in what RST had said. Although if Scott can do it

I think whilst the test aren't the be all/end all it's good to have something, just a shame they lowered the standards

[The Spin Doctor]

Yep, I guess tests aren't everything: it's gonna depend what you land on. A 30 mph glide along ordinary tarmac isn't like a slide on Shellgrip. But independent tests like MotoCAP, and CE standards, are the best we've got to go on. What else have we got?

As well as tests, I've listened to the people who've repaired lots of crashed and bloodied kit: Kate at Hideout and Chris at Nine Lives. Independently, they came to the same abrasion conclusion. When he did high mileage, Chris said he wore leathers through winter for safety (waterproofs on top). And Kate has horror stories of road riders whose kit abraded through, resulting in permanent loss of the use of a limb.

textile kit broadly will get a max of AA as in RST's experience above that starts making it too uncomfortable to wear.

While I applaud RST for being quick off the safety block with the new CE ratings, I disagree about making it uncomfortable to wear. I've had textile kit that passed the original (stricter than AAA) Level 2: a Scott Leathers New Road jacket. It was my 'go to' jacket for many years. And it was extremely comfy.

Also, has anyone from RST tried on one of Hideout's textile Hi-Pro jackets? I have. And the Hi-Pro jacket was (to my surprise) lighter and comfier than any 4-season jacket I've owned. Yet Hi-Pro textiles easily surpasses AAA to hit the dizzy heights of the CE Level 2 PPE. Others have managed it too (e.g. Spidi's Ergo 365 Pro).

While Hideout is in another price league from RST, it shows what's possible. And Scott Leathers textile clobber is in RST's price range.

MotoCAP is independent... CE?? Well, the original standards were based on assessments of how kit had stood up to crashes, the new standards have been watered down thanks to manufacturer pressure.

Of the two standards, I'd trust MotoCAP over CE A, AA and AAA.