Be very afraid - China allegedly developing V4 superbikes...

[mangocrazy]

https://www-motorradonline-de.translate ... r_pto=wapp

Apparently with the help of KTM and MV Agusta - are these companies eating their own future?

[Screwdriver]

Yes of course but also no. I expect they received a message along the lines of: do you want to work with us on building a KTM/MV Agusta lookalike?
PS we're going to make them anyway...

Only, not in so many words.

[v8-powered]

The Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering, I've seen it done with a train and the end result was probably better than the original!

[mangocrazy]

I can't help thinking that we are witnessing the 21st century equivalent to the Japanese takeover of the '60s and '70s. I notice that it's European manufacturers that are entering into IP deals with Chinese manufacturers, not Japanese (unless I've missed something). The Japanese know how the 'infiltration by stealth' thing works and aren't about to make that mistake.

[Tarmacsurfer]

The Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering, I've seen it done with a train and the end result was probably better than the original!

Having worked on Chinese automotive projects I'd disagree.
Chinese are great at copying things but dont tend to understand the materials science.
For instance the metal part looks exactly the same but the metallurgy is wrong (compounds, hardening) so it's often a lot weaker.

[KungFooBob]

I was told it's all about the QA.

For the first week everything is great, then the European QA flies back home and the factory manager decides he's doing the customer a favour by saving them a few quid be reducing the materials quality. Apparently the key is having a permanent European QA manager in the Chinese factory.

[mangocrazy]

The Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering, I've seen it done with a train and the end result was probably better than the original!

Having worked on Chinese automotive projects I'd disagree.
Chinese are great at copying things but dont tend to understand the materials science.
For instance the metal part looks exactly the same but the metallurgy is wrong (compounds, hardening) so it's often a lot weaker.

Agree. A friend of mine (who is into this kind of stuff) told me about the difference between UK and China manufactured cast iron train wheels. These need machining from the original cast blanks and the difference between the UK and China stuff was night and day. The UK blanks machined beautifully; the Chinese blanks were full of inclusions and knackered the tooling in no time.

[Horse]

Agree. A friend of mine (who is into this kind of stuff) told me about the difference between UK and China manufactured cast iron train wheels. These need machining from the original cast blanks and the difference between the UK and China stuff was night and day. The UK blanks machined beautifully; the Chinese blanks were full of inclusions and knackered the tooling in no time.

Not watched it for a while, but I think that this has similar findings:

[Screwdriver]

I have no problem with Chinese people, in fact more like a huge admiration for their historical culture, devastating intelligence (though there are billions to choose from so you'd expect a fair few more at the extreme end of the bell curve).

My issue is with the CCP. It is an authoritarian dictatorship and all that copying and ignoring of patents, copyright etc. is being done by an oppressed workforce. I'm surprised there aren't more examples of deliberate sabotage but I assume the extreme surveillance rules out any opportunity for freedom of expression.

On top of that the very concept of communist dictatorship is being eyed up by western civilisations as a potential future political strategy. It is "successful". Justin Trudeau is clearly a fan and Biden is basically in cahoots with the CCP for personal financial reasons which has allowed their influence to spread. even the prevalence of CCTV within this authoritarian state is being touted as "a good idea" you know, for terr'ism, promise we won't turn those cameras against you etc.

Thankfully "the rise of China" is (I think) about to enter into serious decline. The previous one child policy is finally beginning to bite as the entire gigantic population slowly ages and the "travelling gap" of missing babies begins to empty out the workplace of young bright things to carry on with the astronomical growth in GDP.

There is yet hope I suppose. Depends if there's any money left after the Chinese bioweapon accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan allowing the rich to get richer. There has been a step change in the riches to riches story since the pandemic and the gigantically wealthy, got a whole lot richer as the rest of us begin to descend into a dark depression. The world will change because of it but I don't think it will be China that comes out on top. My worry is that it will be communism that wins. Rebranded of course. Renamed but still an authoritarian oligarchy ruled by global corporations...

[Supermofo]

The big difference between Japan and China as far as I can see is that Japan care about their products and want them to be the best. They have a pride in their work. China don't give a shit and want to copy stuff for as cheap as possible. Eventually over time their stuff seems to get better but more via a cheap shit to slightly better shit for slightly more to acceptable for a low price evolution. So I think that's the fundamental difference, people bought Japanese as it was better, people buy Chinese cos it's cheap.

I really don't like the way China operates, their government are Kunts, but hopefully via Covid and the Russian war it'll wake countries up to the fact that having most of your eggs in one basket isn't a good plan. I understand that the US is already moving production of certain things back in house, it might cost more but it's a price worth paying.

[Skub]

Not watched it for a while, but I think that this has similar findings:

Interesting.

The only real surprise to my general bias,was seeing KTM so far up the list.

[mangocrazy]

Not watched it for a while, but I think that this has similar findings:

So if you buy a new Chinese made bike, trailer it home and dump the oil and filter without starting the engine. Refill with cheap oil, run until oil has circulated fully and dump the oil and filter again. Refill with more cheap oil, start the engine and give it a full heat cycle, then dump oil and filter again.

Refill with running-in oil and start the running in process. That way you stand a chance of having clean engine oil for the early stages of the bike's life.

Or buy something made anywhere but China, of course.

[crust]

Meh, there's good and bad in all countries.

I've been in some not so good factories in China and some that would put a lot of UK factories to shame.

My experience is the better ones will give you the quality you stipulate and stick to it. The wages are low so they make cheap stuff for the home market, western companies come along and buy the cheap stuff to sell over here and wonder why the quality is no good.

As their wages and aspirations rise their quality expectations will rise and so will the quality of their home market products.

[v8-powered]

The Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering, I've seen it done with a train and the end result was probably better than the original!

Having worked on Chinese automotive projects I'd disagree.
Chinese are great at copying things but dont tend to understand the materials science.
For instance the metal part looks exactly the same but the metallurgy is wrong (compounds, hardening) so it's often a lot weaker.

Agree. A friend of mine (who is into this kind of stuff) told me about the difference between UK and China manufactured cast iron train wheels. These need machining from the original cast blanks and the difference between the UK and China stuff was night and day. The UK blanks machined beautifully; the Chinese blanks were full of inclusions and knackered the tooling in no time.

Yep, agree on an individual components basis - have actual experience of the Chinese manufactured wheelsets and premature wear etc. but on the complete product, it proved very good and when cost is taken in to account it made more sense.
If it wasn't for the politics of Euro / UK 'manufacturing' (read that as assembly of Eastern procured materials!) we would see Chinese built trains on our tracks.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering, I've seen it done with a train and the end result was probably better than the original!

Having worked on Chinese automotive projects I'd disagree.
Chinese are great at copying things but dont tend to understand the materials science.
For instance the metal part looks exactly the same but the metallurgy is wrong (compounds, hardening) so it's often a lot weaker.

Reverse engineering what something "looks like" is relatively straightforward. Reverse engineering "how it's done" is way harder right?

Pretty much as you'd expect, it's difficult to see heat treatments for example so copying the exact metallurgy is pretty hard. Same goes for any kind of process really.

We get loads of stuff from China and it all works well enough to go in fancy European cars. The aerospace industry gets loads made in China. As KFB says though that's usually with someone looking over the shoulder, metaphorically speaking. It ain't gonna be like that forever though.

[cheb]

Russia's reverse engineering of the American B29 Superfortress is an interesting read.

Link to an article about it picked at random: https://wonderfulengineering.com/this-i ... rfortress/

[MingtheMerciless]

Just read a short article in the Wall Street Journal regarding Chinese "mega projects" in poor countries. Two mentioned Hydro projects in Ecuador and Pakistan built with Chinese loans but having to use Chinese labour and materials (which is a common thing for belt and road projects) are having issues with cracks and poor building quality.

The carbon rims on my MTB are manufactured in China but the firm are Canadian, my LBS who are the UK importer said they had to go through many Chinese factory's before they found one with reliable quality control, that would build safe rims.

[The Spin Doctor]

The only thing I'd say about the choice of Chinese bike in this test is that it's one I've never heard of.

Impressed with the Royal Enfield result.

Strikes me too that we're in exactly the same state as back in the early 70s when Japanese motorcycles were starting to make inroads... and we know how that ended.

[mangocrazy]

Strikes me too that we're in exactly the same state as back in the early 70s when Japanese motorcycles were starting to make inroads... and we know how that ended.

The same but different, I think. As @Supermofo said earlier in this thread, 'The big difference between Japan and China as far as I can see is that Japan care about their products and want them to be the best. They have a pride in their work. China don't give a shit and want to copy stuff for as cheap as possible. Eventually over time their stuff seems to get better but more via a cheap shit to slightly better shit for slightly more to acceptable for a low price evolution. So I think that's the fundamental difference, people bought Japanese as it was better, people buy Chinese cos it's cheap.'

That was certainly my view as a yoof in the 60s when faced with the choice between Japanese and British bikes. To me the Japanese were superior in most respects; oil-tight, reliable, well engineered, excellent range of smaller-capacity learner-friendly bikes etc. etc. I remember helping a friend strip the engine of his 250cc BSA single, and was horrified. Agricultural didn't even cover it compared to the internals of a Japanese engine.

So the Chinese have the virtue of being cheap, but that's just about all. In terms of engineering they are definitely behind the game.

[Nordboy]

What Potter said.

We buy chinese stuff because we're tight buggers, want the most for very little price. The quality can't be all bad as a crap load of components for many worldwide manufacturers comes from China. I'd be surprised if there's any motorcycle/ car manufacturers left who don't source stuff from China.

And wait until the electric stuff starts getting imported on a large scale. Some of these 'western' manufacturers may well get caught with their pants down, or certainly have to very much rethink that they're doing.