Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

[Hoonercat]

I think the Germans, Americans and French are more realistic about the capabilities of these mammoth tanks on Ukraine battlefields, as well as the capability of the Ukraine armed forces to use them correctly and supply the much-needed support, which is why they've prefered to supply the lighter, mobile combat vehicles. As Turkey discovered, without the right support and tactics, these MBT's are very vulnerable to mobile forces. They're also going to be a logistical nightmare as most Soviet-era bridges in Ukraine aren't designed to take their weight and, unless the donor countries are also going to supply recovery vehicles capable of removing damaged tanks, once disabled they could be out of action permanently.
They'll make a decent job of defending positions but I can't see them being much use as an offensive tool, other than at a local level. And then there's all that Ukraine mud...

[Mussels]

I think Ukraine probably knows plenty about recovering damaged tanks.
At each step it looks like the Ukrainian army has used donated weapons effectively, I doubt they will be careless with these.

However the active armour on Russian tanks is probably very effective on rounds from British tanks, ours work differently to most NATO tanks and I suspect they are designed to compliment each other. On a technical level I find it interesting how missiles and shells often don't work how you expect them to, the Chieftain rounds are designed to send a shockwave through armour rather than just blow it up. This is all above my pay grade so I'll assume the army people know exactly what they are good for.

[Count Steer]

I think Ukraine probably knows plenty about recovering damaged tanks.
At each step it looks like the Ukrainian army has used donated weapons effectively, I doubt they will be careless with these.

However the active armour on Russian tanks is probably very effective on rounds from British tanks, ours work differently to most NATO tanks and I suspect they are designed to compliment each other. On a technical level I find it interesting how missiles and shells often don't work how you expect them to, the Chieftain rounds are designed to send a shockwave through armour rather than just blow it up. This is all above my pay grade so I'll assume the army people know exactly what they are good for.

Tank armour and anti-tank munitions are another fine exercise in the application of minds to protecting stuff/blowing stuff up/killing people. Everything from depleted uranium armour piercing, to two stage/tandem-charge shells to things that slap like high velocity bean bags on the outside to spall off interior armour and fill the inside with shrapnel.

I thought that the big battle tanks were pretty much relics or just used to scare civilians (Prague, Tianamen) but every time someone says the last great tank battle was....ie the 6 Day War...they have another ie Desert Storm.

[Hoonercat]

I think Ukraine probably knows plenty about recovering damaged tanks.
At each step it looks like the Ukrainian army has used donated weapons effectively, I doubt they will be careless with these.

Getting a 75 ton Challenger or 60+ ton Leopard on the same recovery vehicle that's designed to transport a 45 ton Soviet tank may pose something of a problem. Even farmer Nickolai may struggle with his tractor
As the Leopard was improved over time its weight increased so much that Germany had to develop a new transporter capable of moving them over distance (the SLT-2 Mammut). Ukraine won't have anything that can match this unless the donor countries supply them, but AFAIK they're in short supply. Maybe less of an issue if the supplied Leopards are the older versions but they are still heavier than the Soviet tanks Ukraine uses. They are also wider than Soviet tanks so may not be suitable for transportation on Soviet era railways.
No doubt these tanks will be devastating when used in combat, but they could be a logistical nightmare for an already overstretched Ukraine army, given the amount of support they will need including mobile SAM launchers.

[Supermofo]

From what I've read/seen the Challengers will make chuff all difference other than symbolically as they'll be a logistical nightmare for the Ukrainians to use.

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

[irie]

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

[JackyJoll]

Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

Brave little Belgium.

[Count Steer]

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

Given they had 4000 at the height of the cold war and that's hotted up a bit, they might feel they need to hang on to them. Stopping Poland providing some of theirs is a different matter, particularly since Poland want to replace them with American Abrams and South Korean K2s.........

[Horse]

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/secur ... ng-testify

According to Gulagu.net, this is the first time a former head of a small patrol group of from one of the units of Wagner private military company (pmc) had fled Russia for Europe. He is willing to testify against the oligarch and Wagner Chief Yevgeny Prigozhin.

[irie]

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

Given they had 4000 at the height of the cold war and that's hotted up a bit, they might feel they need to hang on to them. Stopping Poland providing some of theirs is a different matter, particularly since Poland want to replace them with American Abrams and South Korean K2s.........

Germany no longer has a malevolent USSR controlled state on it's Eastern border. Poland is now on its Eastern border, the world has changed in the last 30+ years ...

[Hoonercat]

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

The variant being sent to Ukraine is the older Leopard 2 A4. All of Germany's A4's are in storage, therefore need to be made battle-ready before being deployed.

[irie]

The Leopards in numbers might make a difference but they'll need to be used in the right way and things like bridges and mud become an issue. But last I saw the Germans are saying these won't be ready until 2024 anyway.

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

The variant being sent to Ukraine is the older Leopard 2 A4. All of Germany's A4's are in storage, therefore need to be made battle-ready before being deployed.

"being sent"? I am not aware that Germany has as yet formally agreed to send any of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine ...

[Horse]

It's wonderful to be perfect. Fact

[Hoonercat]

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

The variant being sent to Ukraine is the older Leopard 2 A4. All of Germany's A4's are in storage, therefore need to be made battle-ready before being deployed.

"being sent"? I am not aware that Germany has as yet formally agreed to send any of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine ...

I'm referring to Poland and Finland who have both indicated that they intend to send A4's (along with Spain, who pulled out because their stored A4's were beyond financial repair). Point being, there has to be uniformity in the variant being sent, and should Germany agree to join the 'coalition', its only A4's are in storage and in need of repair. Germnay is also obligated to send A4's to the Czech Republic under the backfill agreement.

[irie]

The variant being sent to Ukraine is the older Leopard 2 A4. All of Germany's A4's are in storage, therefore need to be made battle-ready before being deployed.

"being sent"? I am not aware that Germany has as yet formally agreed to send any of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine ...

I'm referring to Poland and Finland who have both indicated that they intend to send A4's (along with Spain, who pulled out because their stored A4's were beyond financial repair). Point being, there has to be uniformity in the variant being sent, and should Germany agree to join the 'coalition', its only A4's are in storage and in need of repair. Germnay is also obligated to send A4's to the Czech Republic under the backfill agreement.

So they are not "being sent" after all.

My mistake taking you off 'ignore'. Rectified.

[Hoonercat]

It's repaired Leopards which won't be ready until 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/re ... 023-01-15/

Other than the above tanks requiring repair by Rheinmetall, Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks which it says it needs for its own defence. Defence against exactly who is a 'bit of a puzzle' ...

Given they had 4000 at the height of the cold war and that's hotted up a bit, they might feel they need to hang on to them. Stopping Poland providing some of theirs is a different matter, particularly since Poland want to replace them with American Abrams and South Korean K2s.........

Germany no longer has a malevolent USSR controlled state on it's Eastern border. Poland is now on its Eastern border, the world has changed in the last 30+ years ...

As is Czechia, with its huge armed forces of 29,000, then Slovakia with an even less impressive 13,000 while bordering Ukraine, which will soon be hosting an extra few hundred thousand Russian soldiers...
10.5 hour drive from the Slovak/Ukraine border to Dresden in Germany, which might explain why they're keen to hang on to their tanks.

[Hoonercat]

"being sent"? I am not aware that Germany has as yet formally agreed to send any of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine ...

I'm referring to Poland and Finland who have both indicated that they intend to send A4's (along with Spain, who pulled out because their stored A4's were beyond financial repair). Point being, there has to be uniformity in the variant being sent, and should Germany agree to join the 'coalition', its only A4's are in storage and in need of repair. Germnay is also obligated to send A4's to the Czech Republic under the backfill agreement.

So they are not "being sent" after all.

My mistake taking you off 'ignore'. Rectified.

Good man, top bit of dickheadmanship You're unaware that currently, only the A4 variant is on the table, I enlighten you, and you pick up on something different and pull out the ignore card

[Horse]

I'm referring to Poland and Finland who have both indicated that they intend to send A4's (along with Spain, who pulled out because their stored A4's were beyond financial repair). Point being, there has to be uniformity in the variant being sent, and should Germany agree to join the 'coalition', its only A4's are in storage and in need of repair. Germnay is also obligated to send A4's to the Czech Republic under the backfill agreement.

So they are not "being sent" after all.

My mistake taking you off 'ignore'. Rectified.

Good man, top bit of dickheadmanship You're unaware that currently, only the A4 variant is on the table, I enlighten you, and you pick up on something different and pull out the ignore card

Fact

[irie]

Fascinating story ...

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/plu ... ttete.html

Bulgaria was known for its stance against supplying arms to Ukraine. But research by WELT reveals that Sofia massively supported Kyiv with ammunition and diesel during crucial months of the war. Exclusive insight into a covert strategy - and unparalleled bravery.

https://www.politico.eu/article/bulgari ... u-ukraine/

[cheb]

I though the A4 was self delivering but the Allies had most of them away at the end of WW2.