DAS

[The Spin Doctor]

I am aware of other places taking the "rely on the ABS" option as a lazy way of teaching

I don't want to confuse Tigs and would agree with 'keep doing what the school's teaching' but see my reply to Ian. There is recent research that shows that average riders WILL stop quicker triggering the ABS. As far as I know, the DVSA hasn't addressed this "do we / don't we exploit ABS" issue.

[iansoady]

But someone can pass their test(s) using a modern bike with ABS then jump straight onto something older (not as old as my Norton obviously as locking the front wheel is beyond human strength) and immediately pile it into the scenery.

What's next? Passing a car test in a self-driving car?

[Bigyin]

I don't want to confuse Tigs and would agree with 'keep doing what the school's teaching' but see my reply to Ian. There is recent research that shows that average riders WILL stop quicker triggering the ABS. As far as I know, the DVSA hasn't addressed this "do we / don't we exploit ABS" issue.

On that subject I don’t get the ABS to cut in on my Multi at all during my normal riding and during a discussion at Pembrey when we were all there for the trackday it was suggested I tried it out to see exactly what would happen so I did

Around 120 mph down the straight on a soaking wet track , checked behind to make sure I was clear and picked a marker and slammed on both brakes. I could feel the pulsing of the brakes and took it right down to make the hairpin at the end.

I repeated the exercise the following lap without relying on the ABS and managed to get rid of the same amount of speed to make the turn but it’s something I am fairly good at judging by the amount of times I was catching people on braking into the hairpin in both wet and dry conditions.

The rest of the lap and confidence on carrying corner speed is where I need to improve a lot though

I ride an assortment of bikes all the time with my 2 and those operated by the school and only one has ABS so I stick to what I have known for the past 30 something years

[The Spin Doctor]

I ride an assortment of bikes all the time with my 2 and those operated by the school and only one has ABS so I stick to what I have known for the past 30 something years

I suspect you're far from an 'average' rider, though.

I too ride a mix of bikes, but I have taught myself to slide the front and recover it on the non-ABS machines.

[iansoady]

I suppose I see it in a similar light to the difference in licences for manual and automatic transmission cars. Pass in the former and you automatically are covered for the latter but not vice versa. Maybe people who pass the bike test on an ABS equipped bike should only be allowed on similarly kitted machines?

I'm not disputing that ABS will outperform all but exceptionally skilled riders by the way - just that using a rider aid like ABS means that when it's not present people who've learned to rely on it will be at a a loss.

[Bigyin]

Learner car drivers have not been taught cadence braking for years as all new cars have had ABS for the past couple of decades …… they are taught to mash their right foot in the floor and let the ABS sort it out

Your can’t legislate for it just adapt and advise people

I’ll keep teaching riders the non ABS way

[The Spin Doctor]

Learner car drivers have not been taught cadence braking for years as all new cars have had ABS for the past couple of decades …… they are taught to mash their right foot in the floor and let the ABS sort it out

Your can’t legislate for it just adapt and advise people

I’ll keep teaching riders the non ABS way

Which makes sense since there are still plenty of non-ABS bikes in the pool of used bikes, and will be for a while yet.

As it happens I had a message from one of my FB regulars telling me about a first-time skid on his 'new' bike - he's moved up to a bigger machine but it's non-ABS... the bike he learned on, plus his first 'starter' middleweight were both ABS-equipped.

[iansoady]

I think you make my point........

[The Spin Doctor]

I think you make my point........

...that you have to know the difference between an ABS and a non-ABS bike, and you need to understand the difference in technique, yes.

But treating a bike WITH ABS as if it weren't equipped with the technology is a bit silly. IMO.

[Noggin]

I think you make my point........

...that you have to know the difference between an ABS and a non-ABS bike, and you need to understand the difference in technique, yes.

But treating a bike WITH ABS as if it weren't equipped with the technology is a bit silly. IMO.

But maybe not a bad idea to keep practicing the different technique? I know that I was very aware that I'd lost the knowledge of how to brake without the linked systme, was interesting to relearn when I delinked them

[iansoady]

I've had cars with ABS (and traction control) for the last 15 years or so. I have had ABS kick in once on the approach to a French roundabout that was coated in some greasy substance; only had traction control activate when I deliberately induced it to see what happened.

So I drive as if it wasn't there and (of course) ride my non-ABS bikes the same.

[The Spin Doctor]

But maybe not a bad idea to keep practicing the different technique? I know that I was very aware that I'd lost the knowledge of how to brake without the linked systme, was interesting to relearn when I delinked them

Well, now you're starting to get into a different issue, and "how do you learn in the first place?" when you're a novice?

The fact is, a basic trainer has a very limited time (thanks to the insistence that everyone has on thinking training should cost as little as possible and that anyone involved in coaching riders is some kind of blood-sucking leach) to get a rider to a standard that gives them a good chance of completing the Mod One off-road manoeuvres. So... assuming the rider's on a modern ABS bike, there's a choice... teach a conventional "don't lock the wheels" braking that means the rider is getting less than 100% from the brakes, or teach the "plumb them on hard as you can" approach which will out-stop the average rider avoiding locking the wheels.

I can't say which is the best approach. If the trainee's loaded and likely to head out and buy the latest all-singing, all-dancing machine with the latest stability aids, then maybe the 'let the electronics sort it out' approach IS best - as I've said, there's research evidence to show that all but the most skilled riders DO stop faster if they activate the ABS on a two-wheeler. But if the trainee's likely to end up on an older s/h bike from the used machine pool, there's a fair chance they will end up on a non-ABS machine, and if that's the case then teaching them to rely on the ABS is clearly NOT a good idea.

On balance, and for safety's sake, I'd suggest that the conventional 'don't lock the wheels' approach is overall a wiser choice. But it's not 'better' in the sense of helping riders understand the pros and cons of ABS / no ABS.

In an ideal world with plenty of time, what I'd do is have a training bike with switchable ABS and start by training the rider to a good standard with the ABS on, to get to the point where they can feel the wheels locking.

Then we could turn the ABS off and coach the rider in the method of 'catching' a lock-up by feeling the skid and releasing the brake pressure before the bike topples. That's easy enough at the rear, and usually only a little more tricky at the front. And then we could switch back and forth between the different modes till they were equally skilled at both.

It's back to the skills toolbox, innit? Learn and master as many as you can.

[The Spin Doctor]

I've had cars with ABS (and traction control) for the last 15 years or so. I have had ABS kick in once on the approach to a French roundabout that was coated in some greasy substance; only had traction control activate when I deliberately induced it to see what happened.

So I drive as if it wasn't there and (of course) ride my non-ABS bikes the same.

I can't even remember the last time I triggered the ABS in the cars, and that includes doing a lot of driving in London. But that's mostly because I don't:

a) try to exploit it as a performance aid
b) end up in situations where I need it very often

The only time I can remember unintentionally triggering the front ABS on the bike was when I followed a car onto a roundabout that was indicating right in the left hand lane, just off the M20 near Folkestone. I guessed it was probably a hire car with a French driver, so I kept well back. Then the driver indicated left and started to turn left, which is where I was going. Then the driver indicated right and started to go right again...

...and then stopped dead in front of me. I momentarily triggered the front ABS. I still stopped about 10m behind the car whilst the driver made up his mind!

But then when I demo e-stops, one of the things that I point out to trainees is that I've usually got the rear wheel lifting on the XJ and the front's still stopping the bike using 'conventional' braking. And this is on an average dry, road surface. I have to be really brutal with the front brake to trigger the front ABS just to demo it works!