Airbag vests/ jackets etc - Yay, nay, don't care?

[Horse]

I don’t know if it’s an age thing but I doubt in the few years of biking I have left that I’ll go down the airbag route.

All other things being equal, you're more likely to suffer worse injuries the older you are, and the longer it will take for you to heal from them.

[Skub]

I don’t know if it’s an age thing but I doubt in the few years of biking I have left that I’ll go down the airbag route.

I started off in leather jacket, jeans and trainers and gradually got to full leathers and /or textiles as the bikes got faster and the mileage got longer.

I’ve come off a few times with nothing more to show for it than a broken collarbone. Biking is risky but I feel I can survive with the safety precautions that I have at present.

If I was a newbie I’d probably go for it but at my age with my experience to be honest I couldn’t be arsed.

I'm still dealing with having to wear those new fangled helmet contraptions.

[The Spin Doctor]

I don’t know if it’s an age thing but I doubt in the few years of biking I have left that I’ll go down the airbag route.

I started off in leather jacket, jeans and trainers and gradually got to full leathers and /or textiles as the bikes got faster and the mileage got longer.

I’ve come off a few times with nothing more to show for it than a broken collarbone. Biking is risky but I feel I can survive with the safety precautions that I have at present.

If I was a newbie I’d probably go for it but at my age with my experience to be honest I couldn’t be arsed.

The older we get, the less-well we bounce. We might not fall off so much but we're likely to do ourselves a lot more damage. I've got some stats somewhere for broken bones and on a crash per crash basis, older riders are far more likely to end up in plaster.

Having said that, I'm still not convinced that an airbag is going to make THAT much difference to the results of a crash. They keep showing them as bikers plough into cars and one well known company very proudly showed off their airbag inflating before the rider actually impacted the car. What they didn't mention were his thighs hitting the handlebars (probably two fractured femurs) and head hitting the roofline (likely head injuries).

[Horse]

FWIW
https://horseandcountry.tv/en-us/study- ... r-jackets/

Study looks at effectiveness of air jackets

British Eventing has funded a study into the effectiveness of air jackets in the event of a riding fall.

Fatalities
The research calculated the risk of severe chest injury fell from 94 percent when wearing a standard BE body protector to 81 percent when wearing an air jacket.

While this means the air jacket could reduce the likelihood of severe injury if a horse falls on a rider, BE stated there is still a “high probability” of riders incurring a severe injury.

The study further concluded the air jacket is “unlikely” to prevent fatalities should a horse fall directly on a rider.

Rotational falls
According to BE figures, there were 45 incidents of rotational falls on cross-country courses between July 2013 and June 2014.

“Not only can these falls put the rider at risk from injury when hitting the ground, but in the worst case scenario they can result in the horse falling on the rider involved, causing death or serious injury,” said David Hynd, head of biomechanics at TRL.

“In fact, in 2013/14, 16 of these falls resulted in serious injuries and one tragically resulted in a fatality.”

Controlled tests
A series of controlled tests were carried out by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) at the equestrian surgical facility at Bristol Veterinary School.

The tests involved dropping the body of a dead horse onto a crash test dummy, comparing the chest deflection when wearing an air jacket with a BETA 2009 Level 3 body-and-shoulder protector.

The horse was sourced from a rescue centre and euthanised by the Bristol Veterinary School for medical reasons prior to the tests.

The test concluded while air jackets may have some safety benefits, fatal and serious injuries are still “highly likely to occur” should a horse fall directly on to a rider.

‘Significant’ step forward
H&C spoke with a number of air jacket manufacturers who all agreed that a 13 percent reduction in the risk of serious injury is more significant than “slight”.

“If the car industry came up with a 13 percent reduction they’d recommend one in every car,” said Charlie Morris from Treehouse, which sells Helite air jackets.

Point Two’s CEO Lee Middleton agreed if such a reduction were announced for car drivers or cyclists it would be described as a “significant” step forward.

Rachel Ricci director at Hit-air UK told H&C it has “long understood” the limitations of both air and body protectors when the rider takes the full weight of the horse in a rotational fall.

“However, we believe that the 13 percent reduction in the risk of serious injury evenin these extremecircumstances is significant, when we are talking about what could be the differencebetween life and death, particularly as its effectiveness improves if the rider is only partially impacted by the horse,” Rachel said.

Further investigation
Although the results provide an indication of the efficacy of air jackets, there are a number of areas that need further investigation.

The dummy used was the average height and weight of a 45-year-old male, so results may vary depending on the rider involved.

For example, risk of injury may be slightly lower for younger riders and substantially higher for older riders, due to the fact that bone condition changes with age.

The horse used in the test was also lighter than a typical eventing horse and there was a relatively low drop height of 1.2m.

“There may be combinations of loading condition and rider for which this design of jacket is unable to offer meaningful protection,” said a BE spokesperson.

Real environment
Lee Middleton agrees the test criteria needs “clarifying” to ensure it reflects how the jackets perform out on a cross-country course.

One major concern is with regards to the time between inflation of the jacket and the impact on the test dummy.

“This delay will likely lead to a reduced pressure of the jacket shown, and therefore reduce the protection offered,” said Lee. “Point Two has consistently pushed for more independent testing to be carried out and welcomes the moves being made in this direction, but is concerned that the test criteria may not sufficiently reflect the real life environment.”

Roy Burekfrom Charles Owen, manufacturers ofAirowear described the study as “ground breaking”.

“Air is an important component in our armoury to protect the rider,” he said. “Studies and standards are the essence to create products that work. I can’t wait to see the detail.”

Extra protection
One element not measured in the study was whether the air jacket protects the rider in the initial ground contact prior to crush loading from the horse.

“While we welcome the testing, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that air jackets are not sold solely for rotational falls,” said Charlie Morris.

“A good chunk of my customers don’t event break into a gallop. They’re middle aged ladies who want a bit of extra protection.”

Rachel Ricci also approves of the recent tests saying she is “extremely pleased” that BE are investing in independent research. Hit-air UK is meeting with TRL to help with further testing.

“Reducing the severity of injuries from any cross country fall should be a priority,” she said.

[Noggin]

Both of you make very valid points (as you both know!! LOL)

But, surely none of us are likely to buy an airbag jacket system and then complain that it didn't protect our legs or head?

We generally all wear good makes of helmet - but acknowledge that this doesn't prevent head injuries. But they should reduce the severity?

I wear Sainsbury jeans road riding. I should wear something better but I rarely do

For me, my big concern of an air bag (for me!) is how it affects injuries around the shoulder. Most I've seen don't directly protect that area, but obviously, that is the one area I am concerned about


I'll be honest. Having met a LOT of people across the two rehab stints, I'd much rather wear sainsbury jeans and a system of airbag protection for my upper body than skimp on upper body protection and put more on the legs.

Obviously, normal people wear good protection on both areas. But in the experience of the friends I've made, you can replace legs easier than shoulders and use replaced legs better than replaced arms (from the shoulder). Having broken my back twice, I do consider that more than legs as well


But, as with everything to do with risky (high risk) sports, hobbies, passions, we make a judgement on what level of protection we want and where! If we were really risk averse, would we be riding two wheeled machines with petrol being ignited between our legs!!

[Cousin Jack]

I started off riding in a Donkey jacket, jeans and normal shoes, winklepickers for preference. In wet weather I swapped them for wellies. I always did wear a crash helmet - it looked cool. Gloves depended on temperature, in summer I rarely wore any. It took seconds to get ready to ride.

Now I wear a proper textile suit, with armour and everything. Feet go in proper motorcycle boots, and gloves are de rigueur, with winter and summer options. Helmet is mandatory. It takes far too long to get kitted up and properly zipped into everything.

Do I really want to add an extra item to my riding kit?

[MrLongbeard]

I'm still not convinced that they offer an extra level of safety when used for motorcycling on public roads

[The Spin Doctor]

H&C spoke with a number of air jacket manufacturers who all agreed that a 13 percent reduction in the risk of serious injury is more significant than “slight”.

“If the car industry came up with a 13 percent reduction they’d recommend one in every car,” said Charlie Morris from Treehouse, which sells Helite air jackets.

It's perspective isn't it?

A 10% benefit at public health level is massive.

But on an individual basis, a one in ten improvement really isn't massive odds from the user's perspective. It's better than nothing, but not by much.

It's the same with day riding lights and collisions at junctions - by using defensive riding techniques, I can't completely eliminate the risk of riding into a collision but I can get pretty close. But for the average rider the odds of preventing a crash by choosing to ride with lights on are only improved marginally. Studies have shown anything from 0% benefit (ie, DRLs make no difference at all) to a maximum of around 10% (ie, DRLs prevent one in ten collisions).

To put it another way, DRLs wouldn't prevent 9 out of 10 drivers pulling out. Is that anything to rely on.

[Horse]

I'm still not convinced that they offer an extra level of safety when used for motorcycling on public roads

From my earlier (equestrian) post:
The test concluded while air jackets may have some safety benefits, fatal and serious injuries are still “highly likely to occur” should a horse fall directly on to a rider.

As Noggs says, the level of coverage varies. Unfortunately, companies don't seem to explain how they make their choices.

Personally, I would probably look for neck, shoulder, chest. But I have no idea what the trade-off might be from each.

As Spin says, avoiding the crash is by far the best option.

Also, when choosing gear, decide in advance what type of crash you will have, then dress and ride accordingly

Your best outcomes are likely to be when you don't stop suddenly. As a Dr on a tv programme said when arriving at a crash "Bike, rider and car close together. Never good, as all the energy has been lost in a very short distance."

How much energy? As a crash investigator said "A well-aimed 125 can overturn a car."

Simply IIRC priorities for survival are head (fairly obvious!) then torso, which is then when it gets complicated because there's a wide range of potential serious injuries. These include things like 'open book' pelvis fracture (slide forwards, groin say hello to petrol tank) which can result in substantial internal bleeding.

In at least one of the airbag demo videos, the rider stands up before hitting the car.

[Horse]

Here 00:27 (view from inside the car)



And here:

Screenshot_20221101-114253_YouTube.jpg (612.22 KiB) Viewed 331 times

[MrLongbeard]

From my earlier (equestrian) post:
The test concluded while air jackets may have some safety benefits, fatal and serious injuries are still “highly likely to occur” should a horse fall directly on to a rider.

I read it, and counter that the types of accident, speeds, distances and forces are not comparable between horse and motorcycle rider

[The Spin Doctor]

I read it, and counter that the types of accident, speeds, distances and forces are not comparable between horse and motorcycle rider

A horse weighs a third of a tonne. A modern car could be 1.5 to 2 tonnes.

How much force results from 1/3 tonne landing on a rider from two metres up, compared with the rider hitting at the side of a two tonne car at 30 mph?

I'm sure someone can do the calculation, but frankly, I don't rate either's chances.

[Horse]

air jackets may have some safety benefits, fatal and serious injuries are still “highly likely to occur”

I read it, and counter that the types of accident, speeds, distances and forces are not comparable between horse and motorcycle rider

Apologies, perhaps I didn't delete enough text. Let's try again.


Chest injuries can have serious consequences, but few road suits (almost none until relatively recently) have any chest armour.

I wouldn't expect 'bullet proof vest' (please note quotes and smiley) levels of protection. But what they might do is spread some relatively 'point' loading and - possibly - reduce the level of injury suffered.

It's only relatively recently that the benefits of traditional armour have been better understood, that they may have a greater role in reducing abrasion injuries. That type of understanding might lead to changes in how [road] gear is designed and constructed. However, given the few AAA suits available even at high end prices, that might be too much to ask.

[MrLongbeard]

I wouldn't expect 'bullet proof vest' (please note quotes and smiley) levels of protection. But what they might do is spread some relatively 'point' loading and - possibly - reduce the level of injury suffered.

Mayhaps, perhaps, shoulda, woulda, coulda, I can see their merit in the horsey world with falls from height and I can see their merit in the racing world.
They may well be the next best thing since non Newtonian armour, but until the manufacturers put their money where the mouths are and prove it through some serious third party testing taking into account real world scenarios I'm not going to part with sheckel 1 let alone sign up for a subscription after forking over many hundreds of pounds.*

*I mean, I probably won't even then as I tend to wear a vented / mesh jacket 90 percent of the time, and being wrapped up in plastic like last weeks burrito dosen't appeal.

I'll hold off until we get them there fancy personal force shields.

Just my opinion / tuppence worth, it's not worth owt except to me.

[Scootabout]

I don't always like The Missenden Flyer's reviews, but this one is pretty good, IMO. Some of the comments are worth reading, too:


I'm seriously considering getting one. I'm starting to feel more mortal as I get older, not helped by the prang in June, and I now have a bike with tubed tyres (V85TT) and am thinking an airbag jacket might help in the event of an off caused by a sudden deflation.

[Scootabout]

Well, I've gone from 'seriously considering' to buying one in two days. I now have a Helite Turtle 2, which has been used for one short ride (without deployment ). I went for the good old-fashioned ripcord type, £500 from Sportsbikeshop.
I suppose I'll soon become psychologically incapable of riding without it

[Nordboy]

Well, I've gone from 'seriously considering' to buying one in two days. I now have a Helite Turtle 2, which has been used for one short ride (without deployment ). I went for the good old-fashioned ripcord type, £500 from Sportsbikeshop.
I suppose I'll soon become psychologically incapable of riding without it

It'll become part of your kitting up, I have two helite's for work, a fluro and a black,I wear either one depending on what course I'm running, overt or covert. When I'm riding, I don't notice I have it on. It's a pain to keep plugging in and out, I've initially forgotten on occasion which renders it useless of course!!! But it's actually easy to tether one handed on the move if you do forget.

In the warmer weather, it does cover some of the vents on my textile suit, so it can be warmer on the bike, my rukka suit comes with front and rear protectors so the option can be that I don't wear the helite and put the plates back in for the extra vents.

Will it help, well I hope never to find out, I guess it's not going to do any harm, tbh, at some of the speeds we travel, it may be pretty incidental anyway.

[Dickyboy]

A friend has been urging me to get one but seeing as I'm happy enough to ride around in normal jeans and ankle boots at times I doubt that I'm the target audience. My normal riding gear tots up to around £1000 and I don't particularly want to add another 50% to that either.

[Horse]

A friend has been urging me to get one but seeing as I'm happy enough to ride around in normal jeans and ankle boots at times I doubt that I'm the target audience. My normal riding gear tots up to around £1000 and I don't particularly want to add another 50% to that either.

It used to amuse me that my gear cost 2x what the bike was worth

[The Spin Doctor]

Well, I've gone from 'seriously considering' to buying one in two days. I now have a Helite Turtle 2, which has been used for one short ride (without deployment ). I went for the good old-fashioned ripcord type, £500 from Sportsbikeshop.
I suppose I'll soon become psychologically incapable of riding without it

JOOC what do you expect it to achieve?