Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

[Yorick]

It must be really, really popular, as all the democratically elected politicians unanimously voted for it.
And if you stand anywhere in public with even a blank placard you are scooped up by the police. Obviously, that's what everyone wants also.

To draw some moral equivalence between the West and Russia/China is not just being unencumbered by the bias of Western media, but being unencumbered by reality.

I understood his substantive point to be that to a civilian under the barrage, it doesnt matter who launched it.

Put it this way, I'd much rather have lived in Baghdad under Saddam than in London under Sadiq Khan.

Both sound shite.

[Hoonercat]

Not really comparable though, are they?

Yes of course it is. The reality of war is horrific. Bombs, burning, death, disease, hunger, torture, rape. Go tell a Syrian refugee "yeah but this is different".
Agreed, but no idea why you've quoted me. The 'not comparable' comment was related to the attitudes of those taking in refugess, not the wars they have come from.

"Our" reasoning for it may not be "comparable" our reporting of it certainly isn't but the end result is the same: Misery, death and destruction for the poor, unlimited profiteering by the rich.

Unless you can afford afford to pay smugglers thousands of pounds per family member to smuggle them across continents, rather than seeking safety in the nearest safe country. Which was kind of my point in my reply to Potter, people are more accepting of refugees fleeing to neighbouring countries than travelling across continents to pick and choose where they go (not that I blame them, BTW).

[slowsider]

And yet Potter, you're moving back to Britain.

I'd imagine the regime in Dubai is a bit more consistent than the arbitrary nature of Saddam's rule.

[irie]

Put it this way, I'd much rather have lived in Baghdad under Saddam than in London under Sadiq Khan.

I think perhaps the key difference is that under Saddam if for whatever reason he didn't like you a visit from some 'unpleasant' people could snuff you out as well as the rest of your family, whereas if the obnoxious little shit Sadiq Khan didn't like you there's the sum total of fuck all he could do to assault you and/or your family. Indeed, in an election you could even stand against him and speak your mind.

[wheelnut]

It was.

But to take his point, and to firm up mine about only being able to see through western eyes, I'm very happy with living in a country where you can't just write something on a placard and annoy people in public, in theory I don't have freedom of speech but I don't need it, I don't need tabloid newspapers full of absolute shite and people standing on street corners accosting me with their version of different shite. I don't want the freedom to stagger drunk through the streets and abuse emergency workers without fear of a good hiding, I don't want to be Piers Morgan talking really nasty shit about someone without fear of being taken away for it.

I can'r swear in the street, I can't insult someone just because I want to, I can't make up lies about politicians and go around spreading them, they're freedoms that the west give people and I don't see that the country is better off for it.

The government do what they do and I do what I do, they set what I think are reasonable rules and they're pretty relaxed until you break their rules, then you're in big trouble, but I don't break their rules and I don't feel the need to have the right to break their rules.

Put it this way, I'd much rather have lived in Baghdad under Saddam than in London under Sadiq Khan.

I’m slightly curious as to the line you would draw on restriction of freedoms beyond which you would find it unacceptable?

[Potter]

I’m slightly curious as to the line you would draw on restriction of freedoms beyond which you would find it unacceptable?

Dunno, I find that most organised governments leave you alone if you are a normal honest person, without fanciful ideas of regime change or nefarious activity supported by foreign powers. I prefer a place that is very strict on crime and street violence/aggressiveness, and where the press is very carefully controlled so they can't print lies, go through your rubbish bins, hack your phones, stir up hatred, etc.

90% of the UK only know what they think they know because the outrageously corrupt UK press told them what to think.

But this is way off topic...

[Cousin Jack]

OTOH in a country where the press is "carefully controlled" 100% of the people only know what the government allows them to know.

Your choice, freedom or control. I will take freedom, warts and all.

[Potter]

OTOH in a country where the press is "carefully controlled" 100% of the people only know what the government allows them to know.

Your choice, freedom or control. I will take freedom, warts and all.

You think you have freedom? Of what?

In terms of press, you only know what the press want you to know, they have a lot more power than the government and the political parties are terrified of them, that's why they pander to them.

If you want freedom then go to a place where the rule of law is not upheld, then you'll see what freedom results in.
Honestly, respectfully, you don't know what freedom is, you've never experienced it, you get told what rubbish bin to put out on which day and get fined if you do it wrong ffs, lol.

Your life is carefully controlled from cradle to grave, with an illusion of a small amount of freedom.
You might not like this, but you're a little Englander that believes you live on the side of righteousness and all those on the other side of the wall are evil.

But anyway, let's get the thread back to sitting in the collective goldfish bowl and ranting about the Ruskies.

[Hoonercat]

I’m slightly curious as to the line you would draw on restriction of freedoms beyond which you would find it unacceptable?

Dunno, I find that most organised governments leave you alone if you are a normal honest person, without fanciful ideas of regime change or nefarious activity supported by foreign powers.

I should imagine that most people who have done very well for themselves under such regimes think the same, especially with the knowledge that should things start going to shit, they have the financial rescources to leave, unlike those further down the ladder who are far more likely to want change that would better their lives.

I prefer a place that is very strict on crime and street violence/aggressiveness, and where the press is very carefully controlled so they can't print lies, go through your rubbish bins, hack your phones, stir up hatred, etc

Going back on topic, the Russian state-controlled press have done a sterling job of stirring up hatred. I posted a link a few months ago of a Russian MP, on state TV, declaring that 2 million Ukraines would have to be either deported or executed in order to de-nazify Ukraine. There's absolutely no way someone like that would be given air time in the UK (for example). You don't need a free press in order to stir up hatred, at least with a free press there is always a counter argument available, and the choice to read that counter argument.
As for the press going down your bins etc, it's hardly an everyday occurrence for 99.5% of the UK population, and the press can at least be held accountable.

[irie]

A reputedly reliable web site based in Riga, Latvia.

https://istories.media/news/2022/10/12/ ... -chelovek/

The irretrievable losses of the Russian army in Ukraine can be more than 90 thousand people. Two sources told Important Stories about this: one is a former officer of the Russian special services, the second is a current FSB officer.

The irretrievable losses include those killed, missing, those who died of wounds in hospitals, as well as the wounded who cannot return to military service.

The figure voiced by our interlocutors is close to the data that the UK Secretary of Defense announced in early September . According to Ben Wallace, over 25,000 Russian soldiers were killed in Ukraine. The British Ministry of Defense estimated the total number of losses of the Russian army at more than 80 thousand people.

[Screwdriver]

But this is way off topic...

Finally we disagree. Misinformation, disinformation and propaganda is the bedrock upon which this war is being waged.

OTOH in a country where the press is "carefully controlled" 100% of the people only know what the government allows them to know.

Your choice, freedom or control. I will take freedom, warts and all.

A pithy epithet if ever I saw one. The implication in your rhetoric is you suggest that disinformation, misinformation, downright lies and propaganda are somehow NOT being wheeled out here. Because you're "free"?

Free to allow the utilities companies to reach into your bank account and take whatever they want at a price they set themselves? Free to drive or ride around town at a speed that can't quite keep up with a bicycle? Free to park in front of your own house without spy cameras sending you an automatic fine? Free to tell some cross dressing weirdo he's not a real woman just because he's had his dick chopped off and stuck on some tits?

Incidentally, don't try that last one. Your "freedom" loving government will throw you in jail for it. Apparently actual biology is irrelevant and to defend the science is a "hate crime".

Putin has used this "gender affirming" nonsense as part of his reasoning for wanting to bring Ukraine back into Russia. The West has been corrupted by a minority of mentally ill "woke" activists who appear to be unchallenged by the vast majority of the population (in this country) who can see it for what it is.

They appear to be "unchallenged" because if you voice an opinion which goes against the woke agenda, you will be castigated, fired, fined, possibly jailed. So most people don't. This is how the rot has set in and begins to fester, destroying the fabric of our society built upon strong Christian values and the nuclear family. Oh and I am avoiding too much religious argument in this diatribe. You are simply not allowed to voice any objection to some of the more extreme flavours of religious zealotry in this version of "freedom". And as for "race" well, just that word sends shivers down the spine. It is not a subject anyone can discuss anywhere.

Putin has used this corruption within our western democracy as a rallying flag for the Russian peoples. They love him for it and we never get to hear that side of his argument. That's our version of "freedom" or maybe it is just an insignificant wart you're happy to put up with?

[irie]

But this is way off topic...

Finally we disagree. Misinformation, disinformation and propaganda is the bedrock upon which this war is being waged.

OTOH in a country where the press is "carefully controlled" 100% of the people only know what the government allows them to know.

Your choice, freedom or control. I will take freedom, warts and all.

A pithy epithet if ever I saw one. The implication in your rhetoric is you suggest that disinformation, misinformation, downright lies and propaganda are somehow NOT being wheeled out here. Because you're "free"?

No, he is not saying that.

What he is saying, as I would also, is that rather than having only one official source of information he accepts a plethora of information sources, warts and all, and trusts his abilities to sort the truth from the distortions and outright lies.

[Supermofo]

Not gonna join the general bun fight, but whilst the Western media is indeed very biased we in the West are able to access more or less any source of information we want. A lot of the counter arguments for what's going on in Ukraine are easily accessible for us and we as individuals we can make our own minds up and also are free to discuss them. This tread being a prime example.

Such things aren't easily available in Russia and China for example. I should imagine this thread wouldn't even be viable in Russia and some of us may even get a visit from the state. That's not a state I want to live in.

Having said that people being detained here for holding up blank placards makes me very very uneasy. Personally I found it hard to square Western indignation at the reaction to the Russian anti war protests and the reaction of our own government to anti monarchists during the Queens funeral. That right to protest here is being eroded and that's a massive concern. I still don't think we are as bad as Russia/China or even lots of the Middle East at the moment but it's a slippery slope. The moment an individual cannot criticise the state I think suggests that state isn't a moral one.

Personally I think Putin has some genuine concerns which should be viewed with an open mind. But if I had to decide on a 'side' in this at the moment based on events as they are then yes I'd side with the Western one. Mainly as Putin and the Russians are being pricks.

Were the US/UK totally in the wrong for the Middle East wars? IMO yes and I think millions would say the same thing in the US/UK. The average man in the street knows it wasn't about WMDs. But I don't think that makes Russia's actions now valid in the slightest. It's all Empire building at the end of the day.

[JackyJoll]

Anyone who protested at the Queen’s funeral should have been kicked hard in the balls.

Otherwise, I’m all for freedom!

[Supermofo]

Anyone who protested at the Queen’s funeral should have been kicked hard in the balls.

Otherwise, I’m all for freedom!

Personally I felt it was distasteful but as soon as you say you are free 'but' then things can get very murky.

[Count Steer]

Freedom to do what?

Any society with more than one person in it needs 'rules' - either written or unwritten.

A key one is freedom to object to and try to change (but not ignore) the rules. Harder to do and with different results in different places. Most of us are fortunate. If we don't like the rules we can go somewhere else and probably live quite well. Not everyone can.

[Hoonercat]

At the bottom of the pile of all the media bias and BS though are civilians, caught up in it all, living an absolute genuine nightmare.
No one gave a shit when it was brown Middle Eastern people, but the media has most of you whipped up about the whiteys suffering in Ukraine.
Both are/were real people.

Oh well, let's see, I can't be arsed arguing with people that can only see through western eyes, but if Russia spends two decades and trillions of dollars killing and displacing millions of people in this 'war' and creating another wave of global resentment and reprisals (they call it terrorism), then it might be somewhere near comparable and we can discuss.

Are you going to add the UAE to your watchlist for its ongoing role in killing thousands of civilians and displacing millions in Yemen? Or are you not allowed to discuss that?

[JackyJoll]

Anyone who protested at the Queen’s funeral should have been kicked hard in the balls.

Otherwise, I’m all for freedom!

Personally I felt it was distasteful but as soon as you say you are free 'but' then things can get very murky.

Yeah but it’s not a big “but,” not being free to cause an attention-seeking disturbance at someone’s funeral.

[Felix]

Anyone who protested at the Queen’s funeral should have been kicked hard in the balls.

Just do it out of sight

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/ ... ew-3864263

[JackyJoll]

Anyone who protested at the Queen’s funeral should have been kicked hard in the balls.

Just do it out of sight

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/ ... ew-3864263

Is that the guy we saw being yanked back off the pavement, to the right, not far up from the start?

I thought it might be cops or some sort of stewards. Was it public-spirited onlookers!