Energy bills

[JackyJoll]

Renewable energy is great but not a lot of use without a buffer, up until now that buffer has been gas power and swapping energy flow with France. I don't see either being popular so is dynamic pricing the answer?

Dynamic doesn’t mean cheap, does it?

[Mussels]

Renewable energy is great but not a lot of use without a buffer, up until now that buffer has been gas power and swapping energy flow with France. I don't see either being popular so is dynamic pricing the answer?

Dynamic doesn’t mean cheap, does it?

I expect more of the occasional dip in 'eye wateringly expensive' prices.

[JackyJoll]

Nicola’s imposing a rent freeze in Scotland.

Not fantastic news for those trying to use rents as a pension.

[Hoonercat]

It's looking very likely that Truss will sign off an agreement with the energy suppliers to freeze prices in return for Govt loans, which will then be paid off by consumers over "10 to 20 years" through energy bills. I'm not particularly opposed to the idea, in some ways it will be similar to France where consumers will probably see their bills remaining higher to pay for the 4% cap (though that money will go to a state-owned EDF rather than private suppliers). I am struggling to understand the cost difference though, given that the UK has already had a 54% rise since the French cap.
Scottish Power estimate the cost will be £100 billion, Ofgen say this is a conservative estimate, and last week I believe Labour costed it at over £120 billion(?).
It's reported to have cost France, with a similar sized population, £7.2 billion. Obviously a price freeze v a price cap is going to be more costly, but by that much, after UK prices have already increased 54%?

My problem with this plan is that it is still the end consumer that bears the full brunt of the hugely inflated cost of "energy" and that the energy producers are still allowed to make the profit driven by those hugely inflated costs. Surely it would be much faire and cheaper to make them bear some of the cost and reduce their profits.

Do you think it should work the other way when gas and oil prices are low and the big energy companies are paying more to extract it than they make in profits?

[slowsider]

It's looking very likely that Truss will sign off an agreement with the energy suppliers to freeze prices in return for Govt loans, which will then be paid off by consumers over "10 to 20 years" through energy bills. I'm not particularly opposed to the idea, in some ways it will be similar to France where consumers will probably see their bills remaining higher to pay for the 4% cap (though that money will go to a state-owned EDF rather than private suppliers). I am struggling to understand the cost difference though, given that the UK has already had a 54% rise since the French cap.
Scottish Power estimate the cost will be £100 billion, Ofgen say this is a conservative estimate, and last week I believe Labour costed it at over £120 billion(?).
It's reported to have cost France, with a similar sized population, £7.2 billion. Obviously a price freeze v a price cap is going to be more costly, but by that much, after UK prices have already increased 54%?

My problem with this plan is that it is still the end consumer that bears the full brunt of the hugely inflated cost of "energy" and that the energy producers are still allowed to make the profit driven by those hugely inflated costs. Surely it would be much faire and cheaper to make them bear some of the cost and reduce their profits.

Do you think it should work the other way when gas and oil prices are low and the big energy companies are paying more to extract it than they make in profits?

Yeah. Cos that's so likely.

"Out of the gobsmacking total pocketed by Big Oil—amounting to $52 trillion since 1970—86% is the pure profit grab of “oil rents”, which the World Bank defines as “the difference between the value of crude oil production at regional prices and total costs of production.” "

https://www.theenergymix.com/2022/07/24 ... ank%20data.

[Horse]

Renewable energy is great but not a lot of use without a buffer

However, the size of the buffer can be reduced by managing consumption.

It's already been in the news over the last few days about varying costs through the day for EV charging. That could be expanded (even to ideas like switching off fridges during high demand.

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

If the challenges of wave and tidal generation can be developed into widespread generation, then that will be additional, largely reliable (sun might fade at night, wind might drop, waves may be calm - but probably not all at the same time, and tides don't stop).

It needs the will to achieve it and massive subsidies to drive it.

The same sort of decisions as ending IC vehicles needs to go into new building standards, whether insulation, wind / solar generation, solar water heating, air source, ground source in foundations, triple glazing, etc.

[wheelnut]

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

What’s the efficiency of using batteries that have been charged from the grid as oppose to using ‘live’ grid power.

Ie, if you put £10 of charge in to a battery, will you get £10 back out. I suspect not as the loss will be quite high.

[Horse]

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

What’s the efficiency of using batteries that have been charged from the grid as oppose to using ‘live’ grid power.

The challenge that helps with is easing peak demand generation.

Better still of generated locally.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

What’s the efficiency of using batteries that have been charged from the grid as oppose to using ‘live’ grid power.

Ie, if you put £10 of charge in to a battery, will you get £10 back out. I suspect not as the loss will be quite high.

But if you're charging your EV with a solar panel on your roof you pay nothing for the electricity....

[Horse]

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

What’s the efficiency of using batteries that have been charged from the grid as oppose to using ‘live’ grid power.

Ie, if you put £10 of charge in to a battery, will you get £10 back out. I suspect not as the loss will be quite high.

But if you're charging your EV with a solar panel on your roof you pay nothing for the electricity....

Yup. That's what I meant by 'local'.

I've seen concerns that the distribution network, right down the cables into many homes (particularly older) won't cope with substantially increased supply/demand such as EVs are likely to require. Local generation, especially at individual property level, generation may mitigate that.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's a paradigm shift for sure.

Not by accident do I invest a bunch of my pension contributions in grid storage and power distribution firms

[Yambo]

But if you're charging your EV with a solar panel on your roof you pay nothing for the electricity....

That's not really true though is it.

You may not be paying for that particular flow of electrons but you've had to put all the infrastructure in and that's not free.

The sailing fraternity like to tell you that the wind is free and, as opposed to diesel, it is. But ask Potter what a new suit of sails is going to cost him when he needs them (they don't last forever) and how much to replace the standard rigging every 10 years or so? Even lifting the boat every few years to clean and antifoul the hull (so those new sails can move the boat through the water a bit easier) ain't gonna be cheap.

I have a friend living in Inverurie who is really big into renewables, (he has an apartment here in Turunç) runs the house off solar, has shares in a couple of wind generation schemes and 'sells' electricty to the 'grid'. I don't know how much it has all cost him but he'll be back here soon and I'll ask him. I'll also ask him the break even point as I guess somewhere down the line he'll have covered the outlay. He has a presence on facebook, name is Joe Inglis, and posts about his set up regularly. He's not short of a bob or two though, the house electricity supply is his hobby and like a few hobbies it can be expensive I think.

[Horse]

But if you're charging your EV with a solar panel on your roof you pay nothing for the electricity....

That's not really true though is it.

You may not be paying for that particular flow of electrons but you've had to put all the infrastructure in and that's not free.

Very true and, for brevity, I didn't include that aspect.

But the cheapest way is to build-in from new, not retrofit. Every house needs a roof, so design-in some sort of solar.

My house (1930s semi-) has a gas combi boiler. When that fails terminally, it would be an enormous task to try and convert to air source heating.

That's why I mentioned things like ground source being incorporated into deep foundations.

But when the cost of new generation and distribution infrastructure is brought in, then those are huge. It's way power companies were giving away low energy lamps.

[Supermofo]

Yup it's a bit nuts that this stuff isn't in new builds already, aside from solar supply issues etc.

[Pirahna]

Cost

I've just replaced my solar setup, I don't have mains electric so it was either that or live in the dark ages: 8 panels giving 3.6kw, 4 lithium batteries giving me 9.6 kwh, 5kw inverter, just over 10k Euro. I think it's a pretty good deal.

[Mussels]

Then there's using EV batteries as temporary domestic storage. Add in substatial extra insulation to reduce demand.

What’s the efficiency of using batteries that have been charged from the grid as oppose to using ‘live’ grid power.

Ie, if you put £10 of charge in to a battery, will you get £10 back out. I suspect not as the loss will be quite high.

This is a valid point and EV batteries are not ideally suited to home storage.
Similar to lead acid batteries lithium ones are designed differently for different applications, a high charging rate comes at the cost of efficiency. Batteries are also affected by temperature so a home power wall in a temp controlled space is probably much better than relying too much on bi-directional car charging.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Cost

I've just replaced my solar setup, I don't have mains electric so it was either that or live in the dark ages: 8 panels giving 3.6kw, 4 lithium batteries giving me 9.6 kwh, 5kw inverter, just over 10k Euro. I think it's a pretty good deal.

5 years of leccy bills, at today's prices! Yeah fair enough it would've been a lot more than 5 years not too long ago

Absolutely should be part of all new builds though IMO.

[Yambo]

Cost

I've just replaced my solar setup, I don't have mains electric so it was either that or live in the dark ages: 8 panels giving 3.6kw, 4 lithium batteries giving me 9.6 kwh, 5kw inverter, just over 10k Euro. I think it's a pretty good deal.

I'm happy for you!

I'd be prepared to splash out that sort of money here as we, like you I think get way more sunshine than the UK.

We have issues here with a covenant of some sort about things on the roof though. Our AGM is an a weeks time and I'll be bringing it up. Again.

[irie]

... But if you're charging your EV with a solar panel on your roof you pay nothing for the electricity....

So I should have a word with the company I paid to supply and install solar panels on my roof to get my money back?

One guess what the response would be ...

[Mr. Dazzle]

If you're still paying them for the electricity said panels generate you're a bit of a mug.