Given that Gemany, by proceeding with Nordstream 2 even after Russia's annexation of Crimea, actively encouraged Russia's ambitions, perhaps you would suggest what measures you consider that other European nations could have undertaken which would have dissuaded Germany from continuing with the Nordstream 2 project?
Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Putin throws in nuclear weapons and the west retaliates.
Even bland can be a type of character
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
So basically, "NATO should have taken Putin seriously"DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:42 pmI don’t know either, I am not a politician. By “appeasement” you suggest I expected NATO to capitulate? No. I expected our politicians to come up with something that would not involve plunging Europe into war. Ask yourself what it is they actually did to mitigate the overt threat from a lunatic like Putin.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:56 amLike Yambol, I'm struggling to understand your stance here. Maybe I'm mistaken, but the first post seems to suggest appeasement on NATO's part while the second suggests a more forceful response. Do you think the two situations deserved different responses? I agree with the second, but not sure what you expected from NATO in your first comment?
Also, what is worse than the situation right now? A prolonged proxy war with taxpayers money being pumped into arms supporting a copycat Russian style mafia oligarchy while at the same time plunging half the population into fuel poverty. Throw in the acceleration of the transfer of wealth into the hands of the super rich and you have a perfect storm.
The current situation could arguably be improved if the Earth was suddenly threatened by a giant asteroid strike. I’m not even kidding.
"In what way should they have taken him seriously"
"I don't know"
Maybe you could explain how NATO didn't him seriously?
And no, the mention of appeasement wasn't a suggestion if capitulation. Taking Putin seriously could mean either appeasement or a show of strength, I was merely asking which (if either) you had in mind.
As for 'our' politicians, there was plenty of dialogue before the invasion, but you appear to be blaming 'our' politicians for not being able to stop someone that you describe as a 'lunatic' from going to war.
Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Well this has taken a interesting turn.
We started off with my suggesting Putin was going to invade another country. Again.
Not a single person appears to agree, quite the opposite.
Then follows an extended period where I attempt to explain my reasonings which are universally criticised as the ramblings of a madmen.
It appears my reasoning is seen as irrelevant (weak/corrupt USA, Biden mafia involvement in Ukraine/China etc.)
Putin does actually invade and the criticism becomes "yeah but if you wait long enough, anything could happen"
Finally it is now somehow MY FAULT because I was not able to proffer a political solution.
Tough crowd.
We started off with my suggesting Putin was going to invade another country. Again.
Not a single person appears to agree, quite the opposite.
Then follows an extended period where I attempt to explain my reasonings which are universally criticised as the ramblings of a madmen.
It appears my reasoning is seen as irrelevant (weak/corrupt USA, Biden mafia involvement in Ukraine/China etc.)
Putin does actually invade and the criticism becomes "yeah but if you wait long enough, anything could happen"
Finally it is now somehow MY FAULT because I was not able to proffer a political solution.
Tough crowd.
Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
I am sure with the benefit of hindsight someone will come up with a brilliant plan.irie wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:55 pmGiven that Gemany, by proceeding with Nordstream 2 even after Russia's annexation of Crimea, actively encouraged Russia's ambitions, perhaps you would suggest what measures you consider that other European nations could have undertaken which would have dissuaded Germany from continuing with the Nordstream 2 project?
Too late now.
The underlying reason is political corruption and "government by proxy" where the world is now effectively controlled by global corporate interests and super rich asset management companies. These entities do not make decisions which benefit mankind, they are only interested in their own personal wealth and yet this too is being criticised as conspiratorial and not "on topic".
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Hoonercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:58 pmSo basically, "NATO should have taken Putin seriously"DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:42 pmI don’t know either, I am not a politician. By “appeasement” you suggest I expected NATO to capitulate? No. I expected our politicians to come up with something that would not involve plunging Europe into war. Ask yourself what it is they actually did to mitigate the overt threat from a lunatic like Putin.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:56 am
Like Yambol, I'm struggling to understand your stance here. Maybe I'm mistaken, but the first post seems to suggest appeasement on NATO's part while the second suggests a more forceful response. Do you think the two situations deserved different responses? I agree with the second, but not sure what you expected from NATO in your first comment?
Also, what is worse than the situation right now? A prolonged proxy war with taxpayers money being pumped into arms supporting a copycat Russian style mafia oligarchy while at the same time plunging half the population into fuel poverty. Throw in the acceleration of the transfer of wealth into the hands of the super rich and you have a perfect storm.
The current situation could arguably be improved if the Earth was suddenly threatened by a giant asteroid strike. I’m not even kidding.
"In what way should they have taken him seriously"
"I don't know"
Maybe you could explain how NATO didn't him seriously?
And no, the mention of appeasement wasn't a suggestion if capitulation. Taking Putin seriously could mean either appeasement or a show of strength, I was merely asking which (if either) you had in mind.
As for 'our' politicians, there was plenty of dialogue before the invasion, but you appear to be blaming 'our' politicians for not being able to stop someone that you describe as a 'lunatic' from going to war.
I didn't ask you for a solution, I asked you to clarify why you felt NATO didn't take Putin's objections seriously, and whether you felt NATO were being too confrontational or too weak (as not taking him seriously could mean either) regarding his objections to Ukraine joining NATO. I didn't say it was your fault for not coming up with a political solution, that's just daft.DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:30 am Well this has taken a interesting turn.
We started off with my suggesting Putin was going to invade another country. Again.
Not a single person appears to agree, quite the opposite.
Then follows an extended period where I attempt to explain my reasonings which are universally criticised as the ramblings of a madmen.
It appears my reasoning is seen as irrelevant (weak/corrupt USA, Biden mafia involvement in Ukraine/China etc.)
Putin does actually invade and the criticism becomes "yeah but if you wait long enough, anything could happen"
Finally it is now somehow MY FAULT because I was not able to proffer a political solution.
Tough crowd.
- irie
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
As soon as Germany went ahead with Nordstream 2 it was too late.DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:40 amI am sure with the benefit of hindsight someone will come up with a brilliant plan.irie wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:55 pmGiven that Gemany, by proceeding with Nordstream 2 even after Russia's annexation of Crimea, actively encouraged Russia's ambitions, perhaps you would suggest what measures you consider that other European nations could have undertaken which would have dissuaded Germany from continuing with the Nordstream 2 project?
Too late now.
[rant]
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
You were asking me what do I think NATO (et. al.) should have done and I suggest they should have negotiated a political solution. That is what politicians do and if NATO aren't going to defend a non-NATO country by force then they too should have made efforts to avoid armed conflict.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:41 am I didn't ask you for a solution, I asked you to clarify why you felt NATO didn't take Putin's objections seriously, and whether you felt NATO were being too confrontational or too weak (as not taking him seriously could mean either) regarding his objections to Ukraine joining NATO. I didn't say it was your fault for not coming up with a political solution, that's just daft.
Clearly the political process has failed.
Don't ask me, I'm just making observations on what has occurred and making suggestions as to why. It seems obvious to me that while Russia clearly is an oligarchy, robbing the country blind to make personal fortunes for their political accomplices, the USA are doing the same in Ukraine. The Biden mafia, Pelosi, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to discover many more US politicians with their fingers in that pie.
Apparently that has nothing to do with the war... Yeah right.
Can't argue with that, it certainly didn't help.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Again, I asked you in what way you felt NATO didn't take Putin seriously with regards to Ukraine joining NATO. That's a completely seperate subject to Russia invading Ukraine - in his speech attempting to justify the invasion, he made no mention of Ukraine joining NATO.DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:30 amYou were asking me what do I think NATO (et. al.) should have done and I suggest they should have negotiated a political solution. That is what politicians do and if NATO aren't going to defend a non-NATO country by force then they too should have made efforts to avoid armed conflict.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:41 am I didn't ask you for a solution, I asked you to clarify why you felt NATO didn't take Putin's objections seriously, and whether you felt NATO were being too confrontational or too weak (as not taking him seriously could mean either) regarding his objections to Ukraine joining NATO. I didn't say it was your fault for not coming up with a political solution, that's just daft.
Clearly the political process has failed.
Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
No it is not a separate subject. Not at all. In fact I think it is the entire reason for the invasion.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:23 am Again, I asked you in what way you felt NATO didn't take Putin seriously with regards to Ukraine joining NATO. That's a completely seperate subject to Russia invading Ukraine - in his speech attempting to justify the invasion, he made no mention of Ukraine joining NATO.
I do not take Putin at his word.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Russia invaded Ukraine soon after Ukraine agreed not to join NATO so the argument about NATO being too close to Russia was rubbish. Russia wants weak neighbors it can push around and Ukraine was rapidly becoming a force to be reckoned with even without direct NATO membership.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
But western politicians failed in their duty to negotiate a peaceful solution with someone who's word you don't trust, and describe as a lunatic...DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:45 amNo it is not a separate subject. Not at all. In fact I think it is the entire reason for the invasion.Hoonercat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:23 am Again, I asked you in what way you felt NATO didn't take Putin seriously with regards to Ukraine joining NATO. That's a completely seperate subject to Russia invading Ukraine - in his speech attempting to justify the invasion, he made no mention of Ukraine joining NATO.
I do not take Putin at his word.
Read or listen to Putin's speech, he says that war with Ukraine was 'inevitable', as if to suggest he might as well do it now rather than later. It was going to happen regardless of negotiations.
Zelensky made a statement shortly after the invasion began aknowledging that NATO would never accept Ukraine, and stated that Ukraine would no longer press the subject. He also offered to make concessions over Donbas. Putin continued with the invasion regardless.
Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
The Ukraine NATO veto is not true. Lots of words, no signed agreement. Same with membership of the EU which is effectively the same thing without a treaty.
I don't believe Zelensky either or at least I wouldn't take him at his word (niether would Putin). Although he was (?) an actor sponsored by a billionaire oligarch, he is no politician, Ukraine is a mini version of Russia.
Ok. "lunatic" is the wrong word. How about psychopath? Happy??
I don't believe Zelensky either or at least I wouldn't take him at his word (niether would Putin). Although he was (?) an actor sponsored by a billionaire oligarch, he is no politician, Ukraine is a mini version of Russia.
Ok. "lunatic" is the wrong word. How about psychopath? Happy??
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Now you've gone down Putin's rabbit hole.
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Lol. Both sides negotiated on March 15th, with Ukraine stating it was willing to compromise on NATO membership in return for security guarantees. The same day, Zelensky announced to the world that Ukraine had given up its ambition of joining NATO. In return, he wanted Russia to pull out of Ukraine. An agreement can only be signed if the other party accepts it. If NATO membership was the reason Putin invaded, why didn't he accept the proposals? After all, his aim would have been completed.DEADPOOL wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:54 pm The Ukraine NATO veto is not true. Lots of words, no signed agreement. Same with membership of the EU which is effectively the same thing without a treaty.
I don't believe Zelensky either or at least I wouldn't take him at his word (niether would Putin). Although he was (?) an actor sponsored by a billionaire oligarch, he is no politician, Ukraine is a mini version of Russia.
Ok. "lunatic" is the wrong word. How about psychopath? Happy??
And no, membership of the EU is not effectively the same thing. Not even close.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
A signed agreement not to join NATO world have made a difference? Like the agreement Russia signed not to invade Ukraine in return for giving up nukes.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Nobody sticks to signed agreements anymore. International reputation? Not as important as domestic consumption. It's not like Russia stands out for it.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Yeahbutt they'll be "breaking international law in a very specific and limited way." Which nowadays is quite fashionable.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Is “international law” actually a real thingdemographic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:24 pmYeahbutt they'll be "breaking international law in a very specific and limited way." Which nowadays is quite fashionable.
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Re: Is Russia just about to invade Ukraine?
Mr Moofo wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:38 pmIs “international law” actually a real thingdemographic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:24 pmYeahbutt they'll be "breaking international law in a very specific and limited way." Which nowadays is quite fashionable.
Not if people keep ignoring it.