Energy bills

[demographic]

So it seems that the US has seen energy bill increases of about 6%, France (with their nationalised company that we subsidise) has it at 4%, Italy has a drastic increase of 83% and the UKs privatised energy companies have increased it far more than the rest with 178%.

Maybe a time to think about nationalised utilities?
Yeah, its a global issue thats hitting the UK harder than many other countries. Why exactly is that.

[Cousin Jack]

Always the obsession with heating...

As I mentioned before, heating is actually a relatively small part of my bill. Double so when you consider gas is hugely cheaper than electricity.

Rather than doing the classic old codger of method of "wearing another jumper like we did when I were a lad" I've taken the more sensible route of making my whole house wear a jumper. Modern builds are (can be!) pretty good in at regard.

So have I, but if push comes to shove (and for some, perhaps many, people it will), jumpers and blankets are available, and relatively affordable. Insulating an old, solid walled, single glazed house is not. Especially if it is not yours.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Maybe a time to think about nationalised utilities?
Yeah, its a global issue thats hitting the UK harder than many other countries. Why exactly is that.

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

[irie]

We used to have one room with an open fire in with a back-burner for hot water. We wore woolly jumpers and extra socks. When we woke up there was ice (from condensation) on the inside of the windows. Costs nothing to do this. Gonna be a shock for a lot of people. Perhaps they'll concentrate on what's important in life and see that this woke shit bollox is censorship by the back door. But I doubt it.

[Cousin Jack]

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

I remember working for a nationalied industry when there was a shortage of telephone lines. We could (and did) sell every one available virtually instantly. Why did this nationalised industry fail - because it had to ask the Treasury for permission to invest, and that usually wasn't given at anything like the level needed to meet demand.

[Horse]

We used to have one room with an open fire in with a back-burner for hot water. We wore woolly jumpers and extra socks. When we woke up there was ice (from condensation) on the inside of the windows. Costs nothing to do this.

Perhaps they'll concentrate on what's important in life and see that this woke shit bollox is censorship by the back door.

What on earth does woke or any sort of censorship have to do with heating?

'Kinell ... Have you been either taking illegal medication or missed prescribed stuff?

[Pirahna]

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

Never heard of energyvoice.com. Who owns them, who owns the owners, what's their agenda, are they an unbiased trade journal or are they sponsored, etc, etc?

I've never been a fan of nationalised utilities, but then a profit is a profit I suppose.

[Mr. Dazzle]

They're owned by the same people who own the Beano

[Count Steer]

Maybe a time to think about nationalised utilities?
Yeah, its a global issue thats hitting the UK harder than many other countries. Why exactly is that.

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

Not much point stumping up the cost of nationalising retailers...they're not actually making much and really, that bird has flown. The biggest one, Centrica keeps getting the customers from the bust suppliers dumped on it and would be in a bad way if it didn't have production and generation capacity. It's the complete loss of control of the E&P sector through the way the North Sea has been hived off that stings. They aren't going to nationalise BP, Shell, Amoco or the hedge funds that are the ones getting minted. Generation needs a good hard stare too.

(France has only managed to nationalise EDF by bringing it to the point of bankruptcy...EdF are taking them to court over it. The company finances weren't helped by their reactor failures and the cost of fuel to replace that output. It's also a moot point how independent from government they ever were too. Ditto GdF).

[Mussels]

Sturgeon's track history of nationalised retail energy isn't great.
BBC News - What happened to Scotland's state-run energy company?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58677769

[Jody]

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

Never heard of energyvoice.com. Who owns them, who owns the owners, what's their agenda, are they an unbiased trade journal or are they sponsored, etc, etc?

I've never been a fan of nationalised utilities, but then a profit is a profit I suppose.

I couldn't read the whole article, or even half of it as they repeated themselves twice in the first 3 paragraphs. Makes them look very Mickey Mouse to me!

[Mr. Dazzle]

I couldn't read the whole article, or even half of it as they repeated themselves twice in the first 3 paragraphs. Makes them look very Mickey Mouse to me!

I didn't see that, it repeats the sub headline at the start of the article but other than that I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

Looking at their front page they seem like quite a dry industry news source.

Either way, I think the article/op Ed I linked makes some pretty valid points about nationalisation.

https://www.energyvoice.com/

Personally I don't really see how nationalisation would do much to address big swings in wholesale prices, other than by passing costs on to tax payers in some form or another. Even if its 50 years from now and the punter never sees the cost directly on the bill, nationalising the industries doesn't magically make money appear. You'd have to nationalise the entire production chain and keep everything 100% domestic to be able to control the price without just passing costs on to the tax payer one day.

[Mussels]

More good news for the environment.
BBC News - Solar panel sales boom as energy bills soar
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62524031

[Count Steer]

I couldn't read the whole article, or even half of it as they repeated themselves twice in the first 3 paragraphs. Makes them look very Mickey Mouse to me!

I didn't see that, it repeats the sub headline at the start of the article but other than that I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

Looking at their front page they seem like quite a dry industry news source.

Either way, I think the article/op Ed I linked makes some pretty valid points about nationalisation.

https://www.energyvoice.com/

Personally I don't really see how nationalisation would do much to address big swings in wholesale prices, other than by passing costs on to tax payers in some form or another. Even if its 50 years from now and the punter never sees the cost directly on the bill, nationalising the industries doesn't magically make money appear. You'd have to nationalise the entire production chain and keep everything 100% domestic to be able to control the price without just passing costs on to the tax payer one day.

What it does do is give governments more immediate control of key infrastructure. However, that may not actually be as good an idea as it sounds as they have made and sustained this mess and give the impression currently that they couldn't run a bath let alone the stuff like energy, water, railways etc. Still at least we all 'remembered to tell Sid'.

I suppose you could draw up legislation to prevent 'home produced' energy being sold on international markets and set prices locally but we import a lot so we'd get rinsed in return.

They're going to have to do something because the domestic stuff is just tip of the iceberg. We may lose huge chunks of industry and smaller businesses over the next 2 years which will have a knock-on to the rather esoteric 'service industry'....if there are no businesses and people are skint/not spending what's to service? Really will be 'Little Britain'.

[Mr. Dazzle]

One thing which would definitely make sense IMO is finding a way of decoupling the source of energy from its price.

I'm with one of those suppliers who claims to only use renewable sources*, yet my prices are going up just like everyone else's. Wind and solar shouldn't get more expensive because gas costs more....they only do because electricity is just electricity to a large extent, so far as the market is concerned.

Obviously there's supply and demand at play too though.

*Clearly bollox, where are they getting that renewable gas they sell me?

[Hoonercat]

Maybe a time to think about nationalised utilities?
Yeah, its a global issue thats hitting the UK harder than many other countries. Why exactly is that.

On t'other hand...

https://www.energyvoice.com/renewables- ... nalisation

Not much point stumping up the cost of nationalising retailers...they're not actually making much and really, that bird has flown. The biggest one, Centrica keeps getting the customers from the bust suppliers dumped on it and would be in a bad way if it didn't have production and generation capacity. It's the complete loss of control of the E&P sector through the way the North Sea has been hived off that stings. They aren't going to nationalise BP, Shell, Amoco or the hedge funds that are the ones getting minted. Generation needs a good hard stare too.

(France has only managed to nationalise EDF by bringing it to the point of bankruptcy...EdF are taking them to court over it. The company finances weren't helped by their reactor failures and the cost of fuel to replace that output. It's also a moot point how independent from government they ever were too. Ditto GdF).

Agree re no point nationalising the industry now, but British Gas have done well from all those extra customers as the cost of moving them was paid for by the consumer via higher standing charges, spread out across the industry, under the Supplier of Last Resort agreement. And as you say, the rest of the suppliers aren't making big profits, it's the producers such as Shell and BP (although I believe Shell now offer a supply service in the UK?).
The video posted above is somewhat misleading. Many countries have decreased taxes on energy which gets reflected in the price hikes, while the UK has been subsidising consumer bills directly and I don't think this is ever taken into account when people are making comparisons. One of the main issues for the UK is lack of storage compared to other countries, which means it has to pay going market rates on prices that are constantly increasing (although that may now be mute, given everyone is now trying to fill their reserve stocks for winter). But even so, a quick Google suggests that consumer prices per unit aren't that much higher than western European countries (excluding France). If UK bills are higher (and I'm not convinced that they're considerbaly higher than the likes of Germany, Netherlands or Belgium) and the price per unit is comparable, then it comes down to individual property usage, not something nationalisation would have any impact on.
Anyways, I'm off to gently and lovingly caress my 8 cubes of oak and beech firewood

[Yambo]

Mmmm at 1:13 he reckons that "energy is the greatest driver of inflation in these countries, including the UK . . ."

Only yesterday it was finally reported that the main reason for inflation is food and consumer goods, not energy - don't get me wrong, energy has skyrocketed but what most of you don't notice and admit to here is that you don't watch your food bills, you just buy what you need and you're fortunate enough that you are all earning above average and can do it.

The banks are trying to convince you that it's energy and they want you to think that at some point it will all calm down, to convince you of this they're peering into their not-so-crystal ball and claiming that inflation will settle down to 2% by 2024 - because then you'll relax and wait.
I don't believe it will but even if it does, in fact even if inflation at that point drops to 0%, you'll still all be paying 25% more for your food bills than you are today.

Energy is a factor, but it's not the only factor and certainly not the only significant factor.

That's it, I'm confused now. Do I listen to a bloke off t'internet who says it's not energy or do I listen to a bloke off t'internet with a video who says it is?

Now I'm happy to admit that I know very little about macro economics and understand even less but who do I believe?

My ignorance is pretty blissful to be honest, I have £x to spend every month (or save etc) and I can see that things I want to buy are more expensive (I'd be happy if I woke up tomorrow and found the inflation rate was as low as the UK's though) but it is what it is and I can simply not buy some things and still enjoy my life.

Would understanding it all make a difference to my life or make a difference to how it's tackled? Nope and I guess the two blokes off the internet who seem to understand it all, but do so differently, don't seem to be in a position to tackle it, just tell us what they think so I think I'll just head back into my little world of ignorance and get on with my life.

Two years ago I bought 1.5 tonnes of logs for my wood burner (oak!). I still have a bit left of that and I have a fair bit of pine tree trunk in my garden to see me through the winter if needs be. Inflation is only going to be a topic when I get a friends rib up to my house and repair the leak.

[Count Steer]

.....And as you say, the rest of the suppliers aren't making big profits, it's the producers such as Shell and BP (although I believe Shell now offer a supply service in the UK?).

Shell has a (relatively small) retail operation. BP did but I think it was solely Industrial & Commercial (gas) rather than Domestic. Not sure if they still do. Lots of the smaller outfits that got in on the original free for all disappeared. It mainly ended up with electric companies adding gas to their portfolio. Even had an electricity company taking over a water company (SWALEC/Hyder) and adding gas to its offering. Not exactly market liberalisation.

(I worked on both sides of the Channel on market 'liberalisation'. The difference was pretty stark. The main effect seemed to be european utilities (mainly German and French) buying up ours...and the railway companies).

[Count Steer]

One thing which would definitely make sense IMO is finding a way of decoupling the source of energy from its price.

I'm with one of those suppliers who claims to only use renewable sources*, yet my prices are going up just like everyone else's. Wind and solar shouldn't get more expensive because gas costs more....they only do because electricity is just electricity to a large extent, so far as the market is concerned.

Obviously there's supply and demand at play too though.

*Clearly bollox, where are they getting that renewable gas they sell me?

Your supplier buys at market price, the generator reaps the benefit of investing in renewables. Bully for them really, they took the risk and it's paid off. (Assuming your supplier isn't a generator).

Renewable gas is on quite a long lead time. Maybe they'll start making it from coal...that'll add to the 50s ambience of extra jumpers, ice on the windows and 1 bar electric fires.

[Mr. Dazzle]

WRT renewable gas.

My Boss's wife is an Engineer at SSE. 'Proper' Engineer that is, not the gas fitter who calls themselves an Engineer, she used to work in body design at Jaguar.

She's currently working on pilot programmes to switch domestic gas over to hydrogen. They have a few off grid villages which have been switched to 100% Hydrogen (or rather, up to 100%, they can also blend with conventional gas). Its more developed than I thought as a technology.

At the moment most Hydrogen comes from fossil fuels though.

Ita also a bugger to hold on to and makes the tarmac flammable when underground pipes leak.