If we were to rejoin the EU tomorrow, what benefits would you miss most about Brexit?

[Horse]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56123668

Uber drivers must be treated as workers rather than self-employed, the UK's Supreme Court has ruled.

The decision could mean thousands of Uber drivers are entitled to minimum wage and holiday pay.

The ruling could leave the ride-hailing app facing a hefty compensation bill, and have wider consequences for the gig economy.

Uber said the ruling centred on a small number of drivers and it had since made changes to its business.

What's the background to the ruling?

Former Uber drivers James Farrar and Yaseen Aslam took Uber to an employment tribunal in 2016, arguing they worked for Uber. Uber said its drivers were self employed and it therefore was not responsible for paying any minimum wage nor holiday pay.

[Mussels]

There's a difference between zero hours and self employed.
Self employed used to be attractive due to tax benefits, now they have been removed people want employee benefits.
Zero hour employees are still employees and legally entitled to holiday and pension, pro-rata for hours worked.
There are some exceptions for very small employers but the rules are still the same whether you have minimum hours or not.

[Count Steer]

There's a difference between zero hours and self employed.
Self employed used to be attractive due to tax benefits, now they have been removed people want employee benefits.
Zero hour employees are still employees and legally entitled to holiday and pension, pro-rata for hours worked.
There are some exceptions for very small employers but the rules are still the same whether you have minimum hours or not.

Ah. Cheers. Has the situation with benefits changed for ZHC? I'm sure I read something yesterday about lack of benefits, maybe an old document. If things have changed it may be why numbers are topping out.

Re Self-employed. When costing projects we used the same costs pa for contractors and permies. Ie the difference in apparent pay rate for contract staff = the cost of benefits so, like for like the only clear benefit of going contract was the tax situation. Even so, a number of contractors jumped at the chance to go permie. (Partly because of continuity of employment. Time between contracts was lost money. Not that any of them ever had much down time - as Oracle people).

[Mussels]

I was self employed for many years on fixed hour contacts, the extra money when working more than made up for the time off and extra stress. My industry and daily rate made it very attractive, it might not be the same for everyone.
I went permanent as I was offered a good deal and the new tax laws were due soon, the tax changes were postponed due to covid and kicked in at the same time as Brexit so many European workers doing well from the tax perks would have left anyway.

[Kneerly Down]

a) why would the CIPD, which represents the companies not the personnel not be delighted by this? They're not an independent surveyor.

The CIPD is a charity.
Less than a quarter of their income is commercial...it's mostly membership fees from its 160k members.
I imagine few (if any?) of their members are on ZHCs and I'm not sure why CIPD would particularly be pro-ZHCs?

[Count Steer]

a) why would the CIPD, which represents the companies not the personnel not be delighted by this? They're not an independent surveyor.

The CIPD is a charity.
Less than a quarter of their income is commercial...it's mostly membership fees from its 160k members.
I imagine few (if any?) of their members are on ZHCs and I'm not sure why CIPD would particularly be pro-ZHCs?

Almost all professional bodies are charities or not-for-profits. Even the Institute of Directors. I imagine almost none of the Chartered Institute for Personnel Development are on ZHCs and most will work in a Personnel department which is a company function not an employee function. Their job is to help make the company function well. If ZHCs are of benefit to a company, it's their job to introduce them and make them work. It won't be other company functions that introduce ZHCs. (They're not going to be anti their own initiatives are they?).

[Felix]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

[Druid]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

There would still be plenty of them around

[Hoonercat]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Head down towards Dover, you'll find thousands of them

[Horse]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Aren't you in Scotland? Independence to look forward to

[Kneerly Down]

(They're not going to be anti their own initiatives are they?).

They are obviously pretty appalling at their jobs then...otherwise it wouldn't have flat-lined at 3% of employees for the past 6 years.

[demographic]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who couldnt move on from the early 70s.

See how that turns round?

[Felix]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Aren't you in Scotland? Independence to look forward to

Hell no. Could you imagine if Nicola with the cock and the blue face painted freedom fighters got independence. She would march them back into Europe and all them whining remainers will be searching Ancestry for a sniff of Scottish relations to apply for a Scottish Passport. We will be full to the brim with half the English and all the other world strays that Nicola will take in pretending to be refugees.

[Count Steer]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

I suppose the whining will stop when people can actually see the benefits they were promised*. Some of the biggest complaints are from people that voted to leave and now think they were sold a pup. When I see the promised benefits I'll reconsider. Until then I'll carry on thinking and saying it was the greatest act of financial seppukku the world has ever seen.

* and not told it'll take 20 years, it was all about a better deal for lorry drivers, things aren't perfect somewhere else or repeatedly being shown one graph that if squinted at in a low light might just show a version of the numbers that suits the posters purpose.

[Horse]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Aren't you in Scotland? Independence to look forward to

Hell no. Could you imagine if Nicola with the cock and the blue face painted freedom fighters got independence.

[slowsider]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Aren't you in Scotland? Independence to look forward to

They've been whining since 1707

[Mussels]

I would miss having a good laugh at the bitter whiners who cant move on.

Aren't you in Scotland? Independence to look forward to

Hell no. Could you imagine if Nicola with the cock and the blue face painted freedom fighters got independence. She would march them back into Europe and all them whining remainers will be searching Ancestry for a sniff of Scottish relations to apply for a Scottish Passport. We will be full to the brim with half the English and all the other world strays that Nicola will take in pretending to be refugees.

You're the first person that has made Scottish independence sound attractive.

[Yambo]

I suppose the whining will stop when people can actually see the benefits they were promised*. Some of the biggest complaints are from people that voted to leave and now think they were sold a pup.

Of course they were sold a pup. Brexit hasn't really happened, has it. The fact is though, that the people who voted leave simply gave their opinion just as the people who voted remain gave their opinion. The great majority of people who voted to leave have had nothing to do with the way Brexit happened but unfortunately they were asked at a time when the people who were going to have to make it happen were a bunch of fucking incompetents. The worst bunch of politicians in living memory. They're no better now.

The Civil Service as an organisation didn't want to leave - most of them would suddenly have to start earning their salaries if the UK left and the game would be up, they're incompetent too. Brexit has also shown half the population of voters to be bitter, twisted, nasty people if the Remainers on here are anything to go by. If Brexit's done one thing it has exposed them for what they are.

When I see the promised benefits I'll reconsider. Until then I'll carry on thinking and saying it was the greatest act of financial seppukku the world has ever seen.

* and not told it'll take 20 years, it was all about a better deal for lorry drivers, things aren't perfect somewhere else or repeatedly being shown one graph that if squinted at in a low light might just show a version of the numbers that suits the posters purpose.

Last year we had some devastating forest fires in this area. The drive over the hills from Içmeler to Turunç was through beautiful pine forest. Hidden by the trees though it's rough country. Now, it's like Mordor. There's some planting of saplings going on and in the winter the forestry directorate will seed large areas as it's too rocky for the saplings to be planted successfully. it's going to take 30 or 40 years to see a thriving forest but it won't look so bad in 20 years hopefully. it's just going to take good management, some hard work by dedicated people and maybe some luck but I think the forest will recover. I probably won't see it.

All a bit like Brexit really.

[Horse]

To continue your comparison, did anyone explain about the Brexit forest fires when the firelighters were being promised?

And, since we're a bit on now, what seeding and saplings should we know about?

[slowsider]

Does the beautiful pine forest symbolise the EU in Yambo's story? Taken years of work and careful management to recover from previous conflagrations, and torched by some kids with matches.