Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

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Will Russia invade the Ukraine

Yes
20
49%
No
12
29%
Maybe
9
22%
 
Total votes: 41

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Yambo
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Yambo »

Mr Moofo wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 3:56 pm
Yorick wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:15 pm Last night we had a couple come to see our apartment.
Him Italian her Russian, about 25.
Had been living in Moscow until the invasion then her and young mates fled the country.
They came here for a new life.
Her bank is frozen but his is OK in Italy.
She told me lots of stuff. Not all like I've seen here or on the news. Quite eye opening.
Such as?
Rusting T72s in Red Square. :D
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Emmanuel Macron has lost the plot! :roll:

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022 ... in-ukraine
Macron warns against humiliating Russia over war in Ukraine.
But Zelenskyy has said:

https://www.politico.eu/article/zelensk ... save-face/
Zelenskyy: Macron asked Ukraine to make concessions to help Putin save face

‘We won’t help Putin save face by paying with our territory,’ Ukrainian president says.
But there are increasing reports that Putin is dying, such as:

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/uk- ... s-23305021
Vladimir Putin 'has terminal illness and may be dying from cancer', ex-military source says

Vladimir Putin's health is currently being speculated and sources have alleged he has terminal cancer
So looking increasingly likely that a) Russia will lose this war and b) Putin won't be in power in 2023!
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Mussels »

Putin has had a thyroid cancer consultant travelling almost everywhere with him since 2016, it could have got worse but maybe not.
Macron has election issues, more elections next month for parliament so he's trying to win votes for his party.

Russia is going to cut off Finland's electric supply at the weekend, apparently they haven't paid their bill. Nothing to do with NATO then.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Mussels wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:13 pm Putin has had a thyroid cancer consultant travelling almost everywhere with him since 2016, it could have got worse but maybe not.
Macron has election issues, more elections next month for parliament so he's trying to win votes for his party.

Russia is going to cut off Finland's electric supply at the weekend, apparently they haven't paid their bill. Nothing to do with NATO then.
Macron is trying to avoid "cohabitation"*, but most likely in vain. :thumbup:

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohabit ... overnment)
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

On Russian state television! :shock:

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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Mussels »

I hadn't seen that, very blunt.
I read that Ukrainians supporting Russia in occupied places are also getting disillusioned, finding that reality isn't what they were promised.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Yambo »

I hadn't seen it either and I'd like to watch the whole debate.

That's quite a gutsy response and I can't help feeling that Mikhail, for his honesty, is going to be labelled a traitor very quickly and will disappear for a while.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Hoonercat »

Yambo wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:23 am I hadn't seen it either and I'd like to watch the whole debate.

That's quite a gutsy response and I can't help feeling that Mikhail, for his honesty, is going to be labelled a traitor very quickly and will disappear for a while.
Hard to tell with Russia, but it's quite possibly scripted to feed into the Russian siege mentality in preperation for full mobilization. Igor Girkin, the man who led the Donbas assault in 2014, has also been very critical of the Russian campaign over the past week, while making references to there not being enough Russian soldiers in Ukraine to achieve the goals.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Putin/Russia's dilemma.

Reported that 1/3 of the Russian army in operation against Ukraine has "been lost". So of 180,000 that's 60,000, which going by previous ratios means about 40,000 dead and 20,000 injured.

The Ukrainian regular army is about 100-150,000. A further 900,000 men can be called up of which 300,000 have previously served in the Donbas.

So remaining Russian forces of perhaps 120,000 have a huge numerical disadvantage to a potential Ukrainian force of over 1 million which furthermore can be armed with highly effective Western weapons.

Russia, to try to avoid losing the war against Ukraine, would have to do a general call up and recruits would take many months to train. Such a call up would require war to be declared. But against who? Ukraine, a country with a population of 44m that hasn't set foot on Russian soil?

The economic damage would be huge as would the loss of face.

A dilemma indeed.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Yambo wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:23 am I hadn't seen it either and I'd like to watch the whole debate.

That's quite a gutsy response and I can't help feeling that Mikhail, for his honesty, is going to be labelled a traitor very quickly and will disappear for a while.
Mikhail Khodaryonok was a senior military figure, willing to bet he speaks for many in the military establishment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodaryonok
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Yambo »

It would appear that Colonel Khodarenok (ret'd) has changed his rhetoric a bit.

I wonder why.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Horse »

Yambo wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:26 am It would appear that Colonel Khodarenok (ret'd) has changed his rhetoric a bit.

I wonder why.
From when?

BBC reported that pre-invasion he was saying it was a bad idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61484222

"In many ways, it's a case of "I told you so" from Mr Khodarenok. Writing in Russia's Independent Military Review back in February, before Moscow attacked Ukraine, the defence analyst had criticised "enthusiastic hawks and hasty cuckoos" for claiming that Russia would easily win a war against Ukraine.

"His conclusion back then: "An armed conflict with Ukraine is not in Russia's national interests.""
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Yambo »

It was reported on CNN that he was back on state TV last night saying that Ukraine's ability to counterattack is a big exaggeration and that new plans by the Supreme Command is going to be a big surprise for Ukraine.

Maybe something lost in translation, I don't know.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Horse »

Odd, if true, that he's the conduit for news of the big surprise and that they've waited so long to deploy it.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Yambo wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:26 am It would appear that Colonel Khodarenok (ret'd) has changed his rhetoric a bit.

I wonder why.
Bet this lot can't be 'persuaded' to change their tune - in St Petersburg no less.

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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Hoonercat »

Just had a Russian state TV newscast pop up on Twitter (tweeted by Russian Media Monitor). A great example of just how fucking mental their politicians are.
To summarize, he claims (without any source) that 40% of Ukraines are against the removal of WW2 monuments (which show Russia in a good light). 36% are neutral, but that's because 'they are afraid', so they get added to the 40%, which means that 76% of Ukraines are against the removal. He then says that only 19% support the removal of monuments, but "if we reinstall their brains correctly" this number will come down to 12-15%. "So the maximum of 5% are incurable". In his words, this leaves 2 million Ukraines who need to leave Ukraine or be denazified "which means to be destroyed"

A Russian politician, on state TV, calling for 2 million Ukraines to be destroyed because they want WW2 monuments removed, meaning they must be Nazis. :wtf:
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by gremlin »

Hoonercat wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 6:18 pm Just had a Russian state TV newscast pop up on Twitter (tweeted by Russian Media Monitor). A great example of just how fucking mental their politicians are.
To summarize, he claims (without any source) that 40% of Ukraines are against the removal of WW2 monuments (which show Russia in a good light). 36% are neutral, but that's because 'they are afraid', so they get added to the 40%, which means that 76% of Ukraines are against the removal. He then says that only 19% support the removal of monuments, but "if we reinstall their brains correctly" this number will come down to 12-15%. "So the maximum of 5% are incurable". In his words, this leaves 2 million Ukraines who need to leave Ukraine or be denazified "which means to be destroyed"

A Russian politician, on state TV, calling for 2 million Ukraines to be destroyed because they want WW2 monuments removed, meaning they must be Nazis. :wtf:
Yehbut, if you look at the Brexit result....

;)
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by irie »

Very good article in the Telegraph (quoted in full because it's probably behind a paywall). Major General Jonathan Shaw was director of special forces in the British Army and MoD head of cyber security.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia can win now

The paradox is that a settlement is desperately needed, but there can be no lasting peace with Putin


The Dutch philosopher Spinoza said that “peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice”. Russia’s atrocities and what we now know about Russian nationalism mean that “peace” with Putin so defined is unachievable.

It is quite clear that, as far as Putin and his ideologue Aleksandr Dugin are concerned, Ukraine’s crime was to refuse to be Russian despite being part of the sacred community of orthodoxy of the Cyrillic script. Such is the defensiveness of this mentality, any who don’t want to be Russian must think they are better than the Russians. Hence they can be termed Nazis.

Ukraine’s “crime” is shared with other countries that once belonged to Russia; Poland and Kazakhstan have been described as non-states by both former president Dmitry Medvedev and Putin. And there is nothing new in this imperial ambition and paranoia. As Alexander Borodai, a Donetsk separatist, says: “As Alexander III said, Russia’s allies are its army and its navy. Unfortunately we have no other natural allies.”

So the problem of Russian nationalism cannot be solved; it must be managed. No treaty should be relied on. As Putin’s deputy said in 2017, Russia is not run on treaties; treaties constrain the leader who must break them as soon as he can. Any settlement has to be recognised as one that can be secured against potential breaches. Which implies that the peace dividend we all took in the 1990s must be revisited.

What might any settlement to the current conflict look like? Zelensky has already offered to end his pursuit of Nato membership. What he wants in return is access to the EU. In terms of territory, Zelensky might accept the loss of Crimea but a sustainable Crimea has to have a land corridor resupply route and fresh water. And Putin must leave Ukraine the Odesa coast line to allow it to export by sea. However, the rust belts of the Donbas, home to Russian speakers transported there to replace the millions of Ukrainians killed in Stalin’s Holodomor and the Second World War, could perhaps be ceded.

So the bones of a deal are apparent: swap Nato for EU, cede the Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine and Crimea in return for a land corridor. In theory, this would achieve Putin’s war aims. It would leave Ukraine still viable, with maritime export routes for its agricultural produce. Rationally, this should be the end of it. And if so, Henry Kissinger is right to assert that Ukraine’s role is to be a neutral buffer state rather than the frontier of Europe.

Unfortunately, Kissinger’s view is now problematic. Indeed, the problems with the proposal grow with every atrocity Russia commits. Furthermore, Russian nationalism means that the idea of a separate Ukrainian “neutrality” would now seem to be a chimera. As a Polish historian observed in the 1930s, “without Ukraine, Russia is relegated to a northern wilderness”. Hence perhaps why Putin’s negotiator Vladimir Medinsky, has said: “The very existence of Russia is at stake.” A successful Western-oriented economy on its border would also pose a real threat to the internal stability of the Russian regime.

The paradox is that the need for some sort of settlement is growing. Each side is fighting the other to mutual destruction; neither a fully mobilised Ukraine nor a Russia that refuses to admit it is at war has the resources to achieve its ultimate goals. Ukraine’s human resources are finite. Cracks are appearing in the Russian internal narrative; when a pop concert chants “F--- the war” in Putin’s home city of St Petersburg, he should take note. Those protesters are from the generation you need to fight an attritional war; and Russian demographics indicate a severe shortage of this age group. Western sanctions will increasingly make themselves felt. Equally, the global response to the invasion, already patchy, is showing fault lines that will widen as food and fuel shortages bite.

A compromise will have to be reached at some point. And Zelensky will need to show as much wisdom in those negotiations as his people have shown courage in battle. But as we have left the fighting to Ukraine, so we should let the Ukrainians decide where to make those compromises. Our role must be to ensure any settlement sticks and to contain the expansive nationalism that caused this war in the first place.
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by slowsider »

Interesting comment
"As Putin’s deputy said in 2017, Russia is not run on treaties; treaties constrain the leader who must break them as soon as he can. Any settlement has to be recognised as one that can be secured against potential breaches"
There are problems closer to home regarding breaches of treaties. :(
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Re: Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

Post by Yambo »

I think there's serious trouble on the horizon for NATO and the EU.

Russia will eventually make some gains in the Donbas region and when Putin feels he can do so, he'll call for a negotiated peace*. Zelensky isn't going to want to give up any land, and why should he, so Putin is going to ask France and Germany to help persuade Zelensky to give up the Donbas for good. Ukraine can't and shouldn't do that of course: Putin cannot be trusted to just sit on Donbas when it'll still give Ukraine access to the Black Sea and he want's to extend 'his' Russia to the old borders of the Soviet Union.

Asking France and Germany to put pressure on Zelensky will simply be blackmail of course. Until Europe has a supply of gas from elsewhere France and Germany aren't going to refuse Putin's request. Let's face it, the Germans promised some arms to Ukraine but I guess Putin isn't supplying enough energy for Germany to make them yet. :( That scenario is going to split the EU and NATO right down the middle. The US and UK won't be for pressuring Zelensky to give up land in exchange for 'a peace deal' and one would hope that Zelensky just tells Putin to "Fuck off" with that sort of deal but Germany and France . . .

They're going to pander to Putin. We all know it. it stinks but it's going to happen and the EU and probably NATO are going to be in shit state when they do.