Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

[Mussels]

Not exactly Russian manpower if Putin can help it, mostly Central Asians and Syrians.

[slowsider]

Ukraine's foreign minister put it much more starkly: "The battle for Donbas - and I regret saying this - will remind you of the Second World War… Russia has its plan and we have ours. And the outcome will be decided on the battlefield."

Mr Kuleba told NATO members that Ukraine is not just fighting for its own security, it's also fighting to protect the security of NATO members.

He said Ukraine will do the fighting, if "you provide everything we need".

Without giving away any details, it seems that was the deal that was struck today.

So Russian manpower vs Western weapons technology ...
[/quote]

Poor choice of analogy from Mr Kuleba, given the outcome of WW2.

[Hoonercat]

Strange conversation on FB last night on an expat group. British expat complaining about Ukraine refugees leaving 2* hotels (provided free) and going to more upmarket hotels, the usual 'if they're refugees how can they afford it?' nonsense. A Russian (living in the EU) replied, pointing out that Ukrainians are wealthy (from a Russian perspective) and mentioned how ashamed he and a group of fellow Russian expats were to see videos of Russian soldiers looting houses for washing machines. It wasn't the actual looting that they were ashamed of, they were ashamed because it shows the world just how poor Russians are compared to their neighbours, along with the symbolism of going to war to 'protect the motherland' only to retreat with trucks full of washing machines and body bags.
It remeinded me of many conversations I've seen from Bulgarians who lived under communism. Something that regularly popped up was washing machines, they would have to pay in advance then wait about 5 years for delivery from Russia, while a Lada would take between 5 to 10 years to be made and delivered, as they had no access to western goods.

[slowsider]

British expat complaining

That cant be right

[Mussels]

Strange conversation on FB last night on an expat group. British expat complaining about Ukraine refugees leaving 2* hotels (provided free) and going to more upmarket hotels, the usual 'if they're refugees how can they afford it?' nonsense. A Russian (living in the EU) replied, pointing out that Ukrainians are wealthy (from a Russian perspective) and mentioned how ashamed he and a group of fellow Russian expats were to see videos of Russian soldiers looting houses for washing machines. It wasn't the actual looting that they were ashamed of, they were ashamed because it shows the world just how poor Russians are compared to their neighbours, along with the symbolism of going to war to 'protect the motherland' only to retreat with trucks full of washing machines and body bags.
It remeinded me of many conversations I've seen from Bulgarians who lived under communism. Something that regularly popped up was washing machines, they would have to pay in advance then wait about 5 years for delivery from Russia, while a Lada would take between 5 to 10 years to be made and delivered, as they had no access to western goods.

I think for years people have been deliberately confusing economic migrants and refugees, so some people struggle to understand how a refugee could have money.
There's also a lot of people fleeing Russia in the last month that could be considered refugees but they won't be welcome in many places.

As for the looting I thought it was usual burglary stuff, not white goods that most people would consider standard. Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.
That takes us back to Putin's real reason for invading, he's been accepted by the population as long as they feel their standard of living is good. What he can't abide is Russian people seeing how much better off they would be without him, so any prosperous neighbour needs to be stopped.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge, it was to support Russian industry, much like Germany does with EU countries.

[irie]

Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge, it was to support Russian industry, much like Germany does with EU countries.

How does Germany do this "with EU countries"?

[JackyJoll]

Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge, it was to support Russian industry, much like Germany does with EU countries.

The Iron Curtain countries were a socialist paradise and so obviously had no need nor wish for the shoddy effete products of the unfortunate Capitalists.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge, it was to support Russian industry, much like Germany does with EU countries.

How does Germany do this "with EU countries"?

It has a ready market for it's products

[irie]

Interesting to read that USSR countries could only get nice to have items coming from Russia only, to make them more appreciative of Russia I guess.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge, it was to support Russian industry, much like Germany does with EU countries.

How does Germany do this "with EU countries"?

It has a ready market for it's products

But other EU countries can not "only get nice to have items coming from Germany", can they?

[Horse]

But other EU countries can not "only get nice to have items coming from Germany", can they?

https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/

[irie]

Attack on railway station shows 'Russian evil has no limits' - Zelenskyy

All of those killed in the attack on the railway station in Kramatorsk were civilians, the Ukrainian president has confirmed.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy said there were no troops among those who died.

He said at least 30 people have been killed and more than 100 injured - but the governor of the Donetsk region previously said the actual death toll is believed to be in the dozens.

"Lacking the strength and courage to stand up to us on the battlefield, they are cynically destroying the civilian population," Mr Zelenskyy said in a statement.

"This is an evil that has no limits. And if it is not punished, it will never stop."

He added: "Russian forces hit the train station in Kramatorsk, (firing) on an ordinary train station, on ordinary people.

"There were no soldiers there."

People who perpetrate obscene acts of violence like this cannot be negotiated with, they understand only violence. Does look like this will be a war with the ultimate winner having annihilated the other side's army.

[Mussels]

I'm not convinced it was a Russian missile, could have been a friendly fire incident given it said 'For children' on the side.

[irie]

I'm not convinced it was a Russian missile, could have been a friendly fire incident given it said 'For children' on the side.

What appears to be a section of a missile has been pictured by Sky News near Kramatorsk Station.

As mentioned earlier, there has been some focus on writing inscribed on the side of the missile.

The writing is Russian and the words translate to "for" and "children".

However, Sky News translators have identified what appears to be an important point around the grammatical formulation of the inscribed text.

They say the way "for" has been written means the translation from Russian is "for what has been done to the children".

Could have been friendly fire or more likely a "false flag attack", but taken together with the targeting of Ukrainian civilians and civilian infrastructure and housing the message remains the same.

(IMO) this is now a conventional arms proxy war between NATO and the Russian Federation, which on balance I believe the Russian Federation will lose.

[Greenman]

Breaking News:

"Ukraine Destroys Russian convoy in Lviv whilst Russian fighters also continue to fight with weapons supplied by the west" - "shit Charles we need to cut that last bit out"..."fuck"!

"Boris is going to kill us now Edward you bafoon"

[irie]

Breaking News:

"Ukraine Destroys Russian convoy in Lviv whilst Russian fighters also continue to fight with weapons supplied by the west" - "shit Charles we need to cut that last bit out"..."fuck"!

"Boris is going to kill us now Edward you bafoon"

Friday night spliff

[irie]

I'm not convinced it was a Russian missile, could have been a friendly fire incident given it said 'For children' on the side.

Speaks for itself.

Russia denies involvement

But within an hour, it had issued a denial. No strikes were carried out or planned against Kramatorsk, it said. Only the Ukrainian armed forces operates those missiles, it claimed.

In fact, Russia has been using Tochka-U missiles in Ukraine at least since early March. The booster units left behind after cluster strikes have been seen on battlefields from Mariupol in the south to Chernihiv in the north.

Zvezda, the defence ministry’s own television channel, reported on Russian and Belarusian forces using Tochka-U missiles during drills in just a week before the invasion began.

And just as with the MH17 tragedy, pro-Russian propaganda and social media outlets initially celebrated the attacks as a successful strike on the Ukrainian military.

Underneath a video showing smoke billowing and debris scattered across streets, the Kremlin-linked Russian journalist Dmitry Steshin wrote: “Ten minutes ago this happened at the Kramatorsk railway station. A group of militants of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was working here.”

The post was later deleted but not before it had been preserved for posterity by re-posts and screenshots.

Another pro-Russian Telegram account issued a veiled warning the previous evening.

In a post at 9.09pm on Thursday evening, the anonymous author said people should avoid evacuating from the Donetsk region through train stations. He repeated the warning at 9.15am, just as the missiles hit the train stations.

[JackyJoll]

What we need at this stage is mature dialogue.

[irie]

If true, some of these troops will have had sons/other family members who have been killed in the war in Ukraine. Mixing these 'call-ups' with the (apparently) demoralised troops who 'withdrew' from the North, to reinforce the south east, looks like an act of desperation that is unlikely to end well (imo).

Https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russia-ukrai ... est-putin/

Putin calls up troops who haven't served for 10 years to replace heavy losses in Ukraine

Russia is trying to bring back soldiers who haven't served in the military for a decade as they seek to replace heavy losses, Britain's Ministry of Defence [MoD] has said.

Veterans who have been discharged from the armed forces since 2012 are to be thrown into Vladimir Putin's bloody war, which is thought to have claimed thousands of his own troops' lives.

[JackyJoll]

It’s time Potter came back, to put the point of view of the elite Russian forces.