Power Steering, for bikes???

[Horse]

https://newatlas-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... /?amp=true

Yamaha is sending a motocross racing team into battle this year equipped with prototype power steering systems that also act as steering dampers. It might look crazy at first glance, but there's fascinating implications for future motorcycle design.

The EPS system is a relatively compact unit that mounts to the top triple clamp. It uses a magnetorestrictive torque sensor, similar to what's used to detect pedal inputs on an ebike, to sense the rotation of the steering head as the handlebars turn, then uses it own ECU to decide how much torque to put in of its own accord, and in which direction.

At low speeds, it'll act like a car's power steering unit and assist the rider's steering inputs. At high speeds, it'll transition into an electronically tuneable steering damper that restricts the bars from turning too quickly, in order to eliminate head-shake and tankslapper-style oscillations in the name of safety and stability.

Obviously, adjustable and even electronically controlled magneto-rheological steering dampers have been out there in the motorcycle world for decades now – the key differential with EPS is in its ability to actively assist steering at slow speeds. Yamaha says it'll "improve agility, reduce rider fatigue and more." At first glance, this is a real head-scratcher; how many bikers are finding their front wheels too hard to turn? Who's asking for this?

But maybe there's method in the madness here. Dirt bikes, and even some big naked streetbikes, run wide handlebars in the name of better control authority as riders push them into turns. The wide bars are part of the look, and the stance of riding these machines, and it certainly does feel good having a little extra leverage as you steer or counter-steer.

But wide bars also come with penalties. On a streetbike, they restrict you from getting through certain gaps in traffic, and graze pedestrian-sized gates as you pass through. On a dirtbike, they snag on vines, branches, and – in close racing conditions – on opponents during passing moves.

A simple system like this might end up replacing traditional fluid-based steering dampers without adding much cost, while giving Yamaha the ability to run whatever handlebar width is most advantageous, without sacrificing any turning authority.

[Mr. Dazzle]

You're gonna see more of this sort of thing as vehicles become steadily more electrified. One of the main reasons for that is you've suddenly got a useful supply of "big" electricity on hand. That doesn't mean you have to be an EV to do it though.

Electrification of hydraulic systems has been a thing in aerospace for getting on 20 years now, cars are following suit and it seems bikes are taking their first steps too now.

It makes a lot of sense really, electric things can move more quickly and push as well as passively react. I know for a fact one supercar OEM is developing electric dampers for their future models. They'll be able to actively push the wheels up/down so you can do things like "hold them up" as the wheel skips over a pothole.

Bikes may also benefit from this sort of thing simply because there'll be more stuff out there in the supply chain to draw on.

[Count Steer]

What happened to that system where the damping liquid has magnetic particles in so when you put a charge across it, they 'stiffen' and increase the viscosity/damping. Did it ever become a commonplace thing?

Edit: Ah 'magneto-rheological' as mentioned above.

As you were. It's in use.

[dern]

Struggling to see a genuine point to this beyond something to write about. Maybe we’ve run out of differentiators to add profit to now nearly everything has a 6 axis imu, abs and a TFT screen.

[Horse]

Struggling to see a genuine point to this beyond something to write about. Maybe we’ve run out of differentiators to add profit to now nearly everything has a 6 axis imu, abs and a TFT screen.

The almost-instant response damping could be the big win, I guess.

However, a 737 Max arrangement could also be an outcome ...

Perhaps a parallel is how electronically-triggered airbag jackets were developed on tracks but have made the move onto road use.

[Skub]

It's ironic that mechanical stuff is so good now and electrical problems have been more common for some years,so we do away with the reliable engines and go full electrical.

An electrical fault on a vehicle now carries a lot more consequences than 'running off a cylinder'.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Power steering is really common in racing, at least as far as cars go. An F1 car would be undrivable without power steering, the steering would just be way too heavy.

I'm not sure if the same really applies to bikes, there's much less you can do to make the steering heavy. I suppose you could have a mega twitchy set up which gives you very good reactions, but which requires constant computer intervention to keep it in a straight line.

[Count Steer]

Struggling to see a genuine point to this beyond something to write about. Maybe we’ve run out of differentiators to add profit to now nearly everything has a 6 axis imu, abs and a TFT screen.

The almost-instant response damping could be the big win, I guess.

However, a 737 Max arrangement could also be an outcome ...

Perhaps a parallel is how electronically-triggered airbag jackets were developed on tracks but have made the move onto road use.

If you make it proactive, rather than responsive, you are on the way to autonomous bikes.

[Horse]

I suppose you could have a mega twitchy set up which gives you very good reactions, but which requires constant computer intervention to keep it in a straight line.

Another aircraft comparison; is it the Eurofighter that was designed to be unstable and requires the electronics to keep it flying?

[Horse]

Struggling to see a genuine point to this beyond something to write about. Maybe we’ve run out of differentiators to add profit to now nearly everything has a 6 axis imu, abs and a TFT screen.

The almost-instant response damping could be the big win, I guess.

However, a 737 Max arrangement could also be an outcome ...

Perhaps a parallel is how electronically-triggered airbag jackets were developed on tracks but have made the move onto road use.

If you make it proactive, rather than responsive, you are on the way to autonomous bikes.

The final chunk of text, that I didn't C&P, covers that.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I suppose you could have a mega twitchy set up which gives you very good reactions, but which requires constant computer intervention to keep it in a straight line.

Another aircraft comparison; is it the Eurofighter that was designed to be unstable and requires the electronics to keep it flying?

Lots of aircraft are now.

Can't see it happening on a road bike, what if it fails? What if it fails on an aircraft?...well planes are much more expensive and much better maintained!

[Horse]

I suppose you could have a mega twitchy set up which gives you very good reactions, but which requires constant computer intervention to keep it in a straight line.

Another aircraft comparison; is it the Eurofighter that was designed to be unstable and requires the electronics to keep it flying?

Lots of aircraft are now.

Can't see it happening on a road bike, what if it fails? What if it fails on an aircraft?...well planes are much more expensive and much better maintained!

Only drawing a comparison - not suggesting that it's a good idea

[Mr. Dazzle]

I think it may be a bad idea for a much bigger - and hard to get rid of - idea. People/vehcile interaction.

The 737MAX is a good example. The MCAS system did exactly what it was supposed to do when those planes crashed. The manual told the pilots exactly what the system was going to do and if they'd fully understood the system then maybe the crashes wouldn't have happened.

The problem came about from the system/pilot interaction and crucially the failings in the way the system had been introduced, both at the design level and the introduction to pilot level. That's not a criticism of the pilots.

Now that was for one system on one plane, operated by highly trained pilots. Imagine putting something like that out there for the general populus. My Mum can't even get to grips with the "three flashes" indicator stalks which have been common for 20 years now

[wull]

Not sure if you have watched the programme about this but that statement is inaccurate.

Also, there is no mention of MCAS in the manual at all other than in the section for acronyms.

The MCAS didn’t do what it was designed to do in the two accidents, there was a failure within the system, the system thought the aircraft was in a stall scenario but they weren’t, they were flying perfectly fine at the time. The pilots couldn’t do anything to counteract it because they didn’t even know it existed.

You can only say they did what they were designed to do if in fact the system was working and the aircraft was in a scenario that warranted the intervention.

Also, the MCAS at the time relied on one angle of attack sensor, which left it vulnerable to failure with no redundancy especially with the lack of training, in fact there was no training at all. Boeing cutting on costs as per usual.

[The Spin Doctor]

Not sure if you have watched the programme about this but that statement is inaccurate.

Also, there is no mention of MCAS in the manual at all other than in the section for acronyms.

The MCAS didn’t do what it was designed to do in the two accidents, there was a failure within the system, the system thought the aircraft was in a stall scenario but they weren’t, they were flying perfectly fine at the time. The pilots couldn’t do anything to counteract it because they didn’t even know it existed.

You can only say they did what they were designed to do if in fact the system was working and the aircraft was in a scenario that warranted the intervention.

Also, the MCAS at the time relied on one angle of attack sensor, which left it vulnerable to failure with no redundancy especially with the lack of training, in fact there was no training at all. Boeing cutting on costs as per usual.

That's the scenario I understood happened, from reading various reports.

Apparently the plane COULD have been fitted with two sensors, but the second was an (expensive) optional extra.

[Skub]

Anyway.

Keith Code invented power steering for bikes aaaages ago.

[Horse]

Anyway.

Keith Code invented power steering for bikes aaaages ago.

Invented aka 'gave it a name'

[Skub]

Anyway.

Keith Code invented power steering for bikes aaaages ago.

Invented aka 'gave it a name'

Pah. Semantics.

[wull]

Not sure if you have watched the programme about this but that statement is inaccurate.

Also, there is no mention of MCAS in the manual at all other than in the section for acronyms.

The MCAS didn’t do what it was designed to do in the two accidents, there was a failure within the system, the system thought the aircraft was in a stall scenario but they weren’t, they were flying perfectly fine at the time. The pilots couldn’t do anything to counteract it because they didn’t even know it existed.

You can only say they did what they were designed to do if in fact the system was working and the aircraft was in a scenario that warranted the intervention.

Also, the MCAS at the time relied on one angle of attack sensor, which left it vulnerable to failure with no redundancy especially with the lack of training, in fact there was no training at all. Boeing cutting on costs as per usual.

That's the scenario I understood happened, from reading various reports.

Apparently the plane COULD have been fitted with two sensors, but the second was an (expensive) optional extra.

The reason for it being hush and not widely known or accepted as a big change was it would have to go through rigorous checks to be passed and pilots would have to be trained for it, they didn’t want all the costs and essentially put money before lives.

They knew about it especially after the first crash, thought they’d have it sussed before the second crash and ultimately imho became serial killers, shame on Boeing.

The programme is a very good watch, even engineers were voicing their concerns and getting fired for it. It went from a company that was solely obsessed with safety to stock shares, absolute joke.

[slowsider]

Anyway.

Keith Code invented power steering for bikes aaaages ago.

Invented aka 'gave it a name'

You'll be telling us Newton didn't invent gravity next.