Electric Motorbikes

[DefTrap]

(personally, I'd like a touch more bodywork for my money - especially around the rear of the bike - first whiff of a damp road and you're going to have a muddy streak up your back. )

I've lost count of the times I've been stunned by the concept drawings, and even the concept bike in the metal - and then the production version is SO disappointing. Massive indicators, mudguards that touch the floor and a silencer like an old fashioned dustbin.

[Rockburner]

(personally, I'd like a touch more bodywork for my money - especially around the rear of the bike - first whiff of a damp road and you're going to have a muddy streak up your back. )

I've lost count of the times I've been stunned by the concept drawings, and even the concept bike in the metal - and then the production version is SO disappointing. Massive indicators, mudguards that touch the floor and a silencer like an old fashioned dustbin.

Thing is, there's 'practical' reasons for most of those changes. Designers, especially concept designers, tend to live in airy-fairy land where it never rains, there are no complaining public, and traffic is something that happens to other people.

[Count Steer]

(personally, I'd like a touch more bodywork for my money - especially around the rear of the bike - first whiff of a damp road and you're going to have a muddy streak up your back. )

I've lost count of the times I've been stunned by the concept drawings, and even the concept bike in the metal - and then the production version is SO disappointing. Massive indicators, mudguards that touch the floor and a silencer like an old fashioned dustbin.

Thing is, there's 'practical' reasons for most of those changes. Designers, especially concept designers, tend to live in airy-fairy land where it never rains, there are no complaining public, and traffic is something that happens to other people.

They sound like architects!

[Bigyin]

Is it just me - or is there a certain emptiness in the e-bike market where 'mid-range' bikes are?

E-bikes still seem to be either 50 or 125 equivalent ("learner-legal" or "ride on your car licence" (same thing)), eg the larger Super Soco bikes; or full on top-of-the-range "high-capacity-equivalence" (eg Zero, Energica etc).

There doesn't seem to be a "300-500cc" equivalent - top speed around 75 (ie motorway capable), range of around 100 miles, but lighter-weight frame and modest running gear: the equivalent of a CB500 as it were.

Unless I've completely missed them??

I think you missed them

Zero have the SR/s and SR/f as well as few others in the range supposedly capable of 124mph , they also have some lower specced ones with 85 mph top end which might be what you are thinking of.

Their 125 equivalent is the 11kw model which is legal to ride on a provisional license and a CBT. I have had a 17 year old in for training who had one waiting for her once her CBT was done

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/en-gb

[Mr. Dazzle]

This look interesting, but again - it's oodles of cash (if it even makes it to production)



very little info on the website: https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/ Which makes me think it's a startup looking for VC cash.

(personally, I'd like a touch more bodywork for my money - especially around the rear of the bike - first whiff of a damp road and you're going to have a muddy streak up your back. )

i'd be terrified of accidentally ripping those high voltage orange cables out with a careless leg swing.

[Rockburner]

This look interesting, but again - it's oodles of cash (if it even makes it to production)



very little info on the website: https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/ Which makes me think it's a startup looking for VC cash.

(personally, I'd like a touch more bodywork for my money - especially around the rear of the bike - first whiff of a damp road and you're going to have a muddy streak up your back. )

i'd be terrified of accidentally ripping those high voltage orange cables out with a careless leg swing.

Good point - what happens if a crashed bike catches on (I dunno - a truck) and rips the cables out? They're a bit exposed....

[Rockburner]

Is it just me - or is there a certain emptiness in the e-bike market where 'mid-range' bikes are?

E-bikes still seem to be either 50 or 125 equivalent ("learner-legal" or "ride on your car licence" (same thing)), eg the larger Super Soco bikes; or full on top-of-the-range "high-capacity-equivalence" (eg Zero, Energica etc).

There doesn't seem to be a "300-500cc" equivalent - top speed around 75 (ie motorway capable), range of around 100 miles, but lighter-weight frame and modest running gear: the equivalent of a CB500 as it were.

Unless I've completely missed them??

I think you missed them

Zero have the SR/s and SR/f as well as few others in the range supposedly capable of 124mph , they also have some lower specced ones with 85 mph top end which might be what you are thinking of.

Their 125 equivalent is the 11kw model which is legal to ride on a provisional license and a CBT. I have had a 17 year old in for training who had one waiting for her once her CBT was done

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/en-gb

The base 'S' is still £14K+

[A_morti]

Yeah - the Nius look ok - not sure they do a 125 equivalent? (ie a 50-60mph capable bike)

They have a scooter that will do that at £4,099 (£800 more than a PCX125, ouch), but no motorcycles at all to date.
https://www.niu.com/en/product/mqi-gt-evo

[Tarmacsurfer]

I still see the current EV bike producers as market disruptors.
Once the large OEMs start mass production then they'll fade into the background.
It's all very well making a great performing bike but what the buyer also wants is warranty, support, spare parts, servicing and all these things that you get with a premium product.

[The Spin Doctor]

I suppose there's a need to distinguish your bike from the dozens of other start-ups trying to empty folks' wallets for something that's quite likely never going to be built... but a hubless rear wheel?

[The Spin Doctor]

I still see the current EV bike producers as market disruptors.
Once the large OEMs start mass production then they'll fade into the background.
It's all very well making a great performing bike but what the buyer also wants is warranty, support, spare parts, servicing and all these things that you get with a premium product.

The big bike builders will have to be careful. The Chinese and the Indians already have burgeoning manufacturers and they are rapidly developing their supply chains. They also have the capacity to swamp the market before the Japanese get going. An Indian company is building the biggest factory for electric bikes in the world.

[Cousin Jack]

That's probably 'cause they're using a reasonbly bespoke set of motors and batteries to fit around their bike - or they've fitted the bike around them, same thing really. They're designed together.

The effort to do that doesn't scale with performance, so it's just as expensive to do it on a 70bhp bike as it is on a 170bhp bike, give or take. As above, for a low powered thing you've got wiggle room on battery size and placement, as soon as you get a bit juicey you need a nice well fitted in battery that's made just for your shape. We're all accustomed to a clear price/performance relationship because piston engines are very well established now, but EVs haven't got there yet.

Has battery design moved on? My Lexus hybrid battery is a big case, filled with little AA-sized cells all linked together. I don't imagine it would take a genius to rearrange the batteries into a different shaped case. It isn't quite as easy as that, it still has to meet heating criteria, but rocket science it is not.

[A_morti]

The big bike builders will have to be careful. The Chinese and the Indians already have burgeoning manufacturers and they are rapidly developing their supply chains. They also have the capacity to swamp the market before the Japanese get going. An Indian company is building the biggest factory for electric bikes in the world.

+1
On my tiny island in the Med with about 500k people on it, there's hundreds of these Niu 45km/h scooters running about as big fleets for "by the minute" hire companies. They're doing pretty well, even if they've never seen the inside of a garage and are literally the village bike.

Consequently, there's also a flagship dealer plus 2 or 3 other dealers who will resell you one of these bikes, for fairly sensible money and there are government grants for them.

So far I think the block to widespread pickup is that they're slower than a Japanese 125cc which costs about the same. The electric scooters with 80km/h+ top speeds start looking pretty expensive. If that can be brought into line, then there will be no real point in petrol powered mopeds anymore.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Has battery design moved on? My Lexus hybrid battery is a big case, filled with little AA-sized cells all linked together. I don't imagine it would take a genius to rearrange the batteries into a different shaped case. It isn't quite as easy as that, it still has to meet heating criteria, but rocket science it is not.

This is the difference between the bare bones of what you actually need to do and what you need to do to make a reliable robust product.

In short, no it's not actually that difficult, but when making OE stuff anything which is unique to your application takes alot of time, money and effort. The problem is then compounded by the fact you don't have many bikes to amortise the cost over compared to doing it for a car.

[The Spin Doctor]

This is the difference between the bare bones of what you actually need to do and what you need to do to make a reliable robust product.

In short, no it's not actually that difficult, but when making OE stuff anything which is unique to your application takes alot of time, money and effort. The problem is then compounded by the fact you don't have many bikes to amortise the cost over compared to doing it for a car.

Which is why Honda, Yamaha, KTM and Piaggio have already formalised their swappable battery consortium back in September last year, after declaring intent some six months earlier.

The declaration announced four primary goals:

1) Develop common technical specifications of the swappable battery systems
2) Confirm common usage of the battery systems
3) Make, and promote, the Consortium’s common specifications a standard within European and International standardization bodies
4) Expand the use of the Consortium’s common specification to global level

And this gives you a good heads-up as to what they are working for: "By working closely with interested stakeholders and National, European and International standardization bodies, the founding members of the Consortium will be involved in the creation of international technical standards."

So in other words, they want to gain control of what goes into bikes, and they want to spread the cost between them. At the end of the day, standardising around a battery is no more radical than using a badged ICE in a number of different models.

[Count Steer]

At the end of the day, standardising around a battery is no more radical than using a badged ICE in a number of different models.

It's more like standardising petrol really.

Standardising batteries should make them cheaper, not leave you locked in to batteries supplied by the bike manufacturer etc.

The holy grail would be 'hot' swap batteries. Pull into a service station, ride out with a fresh, fully charged battery (as you can in some places with electric bicycles). No hanging around chargers, no worries about broken ones/incompatible ones, no more range anxiety than with a (small) petrol tank. Needs standard batteries of course.

[Cousin Jack]

The 'holy grail' is an illusion, the real comparison with petrol is electricity. Hot swap batteries may come, but a baby city car is not going to take the battery for a big Merc SUV, whereas they can both fill up at the same pump.

[Count Steer]

The 'holy grail' is an illusion, the real comparison with petrol is electricity. Hot swap batteries may come, but a baby city car is not going to take the battery for a big Merc SUV, whereas they can both fill up at the same pump.

Yebbut we're talking Yamaha, Honda, KTM and Piaggio here.

Also, the thing about the holy grail is, of course, it's never been found.

[Rockburner]

The 'holy grail' is an illusion, the real comparison with petrol is electricity. Hot swap batteries may come, but a baby city car is not going to take the battery for a big Merc SUV, whereas they can both fill up at the same pump.

Unless the big merc takes multiple units

[Count Steer]

The 'holy grail' is an illusion, the real comparison with petrol is electricity. Hot swap batteries may come, but a baby city car is not going to take the battery for a big Merc SUV, whereas they can both fill up at the same pump.

Unless the big merc takes multiple units

Yup. It sounds like current batteries are a box of little batteries, so there's no reason as far as I can see, if a car needs 500 little batteries they can't be a rack of 5 standard 100 mini-bats ones. No doubt, Young Dazzle will explain why they can/can't do it.

(I suspect I'll be driving a mobility scooter by the time it happens though).