Damn you Santa Cruz😂

[MingtheMerciless]

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-GB/bikes/heckler

Doesn't help that the LBS could do a deal on one.......

[weeksy]

the Ebikes are now getting VERY much MTB like aren't they.... i think designers have figured out how people want it still to look like a standard MTB...

That's very very pretty.

[KungFooBob]

That suspension linkage is making my head hurt.

[weeksy]

That suspension linkage is making my head hurt.

Whys that KFB ?

[KungFooBob]

I guess its a pull style shock rather than one that compresses, but there must be a bit hidden behind the frame in the photo's that makes it all make sense in my head.

[weeksy]

I guess its a pull style shock rather than one that compresses, but there must be a bit hidden behind the frame in the photo's that makes it all make sense in my head.

the VPP setup on the SC bikes is very well reported and known, so will be easy enough to find out what you need. On that page itself there's more pics and info.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Looks a nice bike, rear suspension is hugely over complicated for what it needs to do, KTM MX bikes just have the shock directly connected to the swingarm, no linkages.

[weeksy]

Looks a nice bike, rear suspension is hugely over complicated for what it needs to do, KTM MX bikes just have the shock directly connected to the swingarm, no linkages.

I'd assume by the fact that no-one does that, it doesn't work on MTBs.

[Mr Moofo]

Looks a nice bike, rear suspension is hugely over complicated for what it needs to do, KTM MX bikes just have the shock directly connected to the swingarm, no linkages.

I'd assume by the fact that no-one does that, it doesn't work on MTBs.

I can remember discussing this years ago on STW - orange use a simple single pivot. But the issue with MTBs is that they are powered by two slow revolving pistons that put out a fair amount of torque inconsistently through the revolution.

Ming - I don't want one , honest. But can you PM me what sort of discount you think is possible?

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Looks a nice bike, rear suspension is hugely over complicated for what it needs to do, KTM MX bikes just have the shock directly connected to the swingarm, no linkages.

I'd assume by the fact that no-one does that, it doesn't work on MTBs.

Or it's a marketing gimmick.
Though it would need an expensive progressively wound spring to work well with no linkage.

[KungFooBob]

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-GB ... ion-design

I'm sure it works, it just looks wrong!

[weeksy]

Looks a nice bike, rear suspension is hugely over complicated for what it needs to do, KTM MX bikes just have the shock directly connected to the swingarm, no linkages.

I'd assume by the fact that no-one does that, it doesn't work on MTBs.

Or it's a marketing gimmick.
Though it would need an expensive progressively wound spring to work well with no linkage.

Bullshit.

If it were a marketing gimmick then plenty of others would jump on the direct mount for lower cost. If it could be done cheaply and well, you can be 100% sure that plenty of manufacturers would be doing it.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'd guess the primary point of that linkage is to free up space around the bottom bracket for the electric drive gubbins.

Plenty of funny linkages in motorcycles too - like Honda Pro-link (originally for MotoGP IIRC) or whatever the hell Ducati call the set up on a Panigale.

EDIT: Just read KFB's link about the virtual pivot point - that's clever that is! Means you're moving the point about which the suspension is swinging, depending on what it's doing. Pretty neat.

[weeksy]

I'd guess the primary point of that linkage is to free up space around the bottom bracket for the electric drive gubbins.

Plenty of funny linkages in motorcycles too - like Honda Pro-link (originally for MotoGP IIRC) or whatever the hell Ducati call the set up on a Panigale.

EDIT: Just read KFB's link about the virtual pivot point - that's clever that is! Means you're moving the point about which the suspension is swinging, depending on what it's doing. Pretty neat.

They've been using VPP for many many years before Ebikes.

[lostboy]

I'd guess the primary point of that linkage is to free up space around the bottom bracket for the electric drive gubbins.

Plenty of funny linkages in motorcycles too - like Honda Pro-link (originally for MotoGP IIRC) or whatever the hell Ducati call the set up on a Panigale.

EDIT: Just read KFB's link about the virtual pivot point - that's clever that is! Means you're moving the point about which the suspension is swinging, depending on what it's doing. Pretty neat.

Wasn't Pro-Link first seen on the CR500 crosser? As an answer to Kawasaki's Uni-link? (I may be getting confused as to the order of things)

Orange's single (high) pivot is fucking shocking - despite what all the magazine tests say. It's ok downhill but you really don't want to pedal it - even with lockout. The 5 was/is the most over-hyped MTB ever.

VPP is very clever and works well. As does the DW link and a few other very clever systems. But I do struggle with the amount of bearings and pivots and their exposure to shite and the inevitable maintenance that comes with it.

[Mr Moofo]

Orange's single (high) pivot is fucking shocking - despite what all the magazine tests say. It's ok downhill but you really don't want to pedal it - even with lockout. The 5 was/is the most over-hyped MTB ever.

I had a Patriot as my 2nd suspension bike - after the URT Trek Y11.
I never gelled with it - it was bought for a very good price from Leisure Lakes on a whim. It was too small, too flexible ( as it it changed gear on its own) and pedalling it was a PITA.
I bought an One-On 456 and never really rode the Patriot 66 again. Go figure!

[lostboy]

Orange's single (high) pivot is fucking shocking - despite what all the magazine tests say. It's ok downhill but you really don't want to pedal it - even with lockout. The 5 was/is the most over-hyped MTB ever.

I had a Patriot as my 2nd suspension bike - after the URT Trek Y11.
I never gelled with it - it was bought for a very good price from Leisure Lakes on a whim. It was too small, too flexible ( as it it changed gear on its own) and pedalling it was a PITA.
I bought an One-On 456 and never really rode the Patriot 66 again. Go figure!

I know so many people that bought 5s and 6s on the strength of the reviews from the magazines and found the same - "rustic" build, flexible as fuck and you just couldn't pedal them. That's why the S/H market is generally saturated with them.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

All the modern motorcycle monoshock solutions first appeared on off road bikes

Kawasaki UniTrak
Honda Pro Link
Yamaha Monocross
Suzuki Full Floater
Cagiva Soft Damp

And whatever KTM called theirs

Kawasaki and Suzuki initially had setups that compressed both ends of the shock, but dropped these for progressive linkages just compressing the bottom of the shock like everyone else.

In the mid 80s the bell crank design was introduced which is still used, in the late 90s KTM stopped using linkages.

Yamaha initially didn't have linkages, but started using them in 81 or 82.

As for whether the complicated linkages on mountain bikes are necessary or just marketing, I don't know, personally I prefer a hard tail bicycle.

[lostboy]

All the modern motorcycle monoshock solutions first appeared on off road bikes

Kawasaki UniTrak
Honda Pro Link
Yamaha Monocross
Suzuki Full Floater
Cagiva Soft Damp

And whatever KTM called theirs

Kawasaki and Suzuki initially had setups that compressed both ends of the shock, but dropped these for progressive linkages just compressing the bottom of the shock like everyone else.

In the mid 80s the bell crank design was introduced which is still used, in the late 90s KTM stopped using linkages.

Yamaha initially didn't have linkages, but started using them in 81 or 82.

As for whether the complicated linkages on mountain bikes are necessary or just marketing, I don't know, personally I prefer a hard tail bicycle.

There are some very good single pivot bikes - my Transition is one of them - but most MTBs definitely benefit from a linkage system.

[MingtheMerciless]

Best front end for XC was the PRST-1 funny front end, it was so supple and just hoovered up small trail chatter, it did struggle as the pace was upped or you pointed down hill but apparently they had a long travel system in development that was working well but Whyte axed the project.

I've ridden a few Santa Cruz's and they usually have a nice poppy/lively feel on the trail, certainly my mates like them (Bronson's, Nomads and a Hightower) the only one that was a bit "soft" was MegaTower demo I rode, if I remember correctly was a bit hoovery and blunted the trail (but it was ridiculous travel for the Sarf Dahns) and it was fitted with a cheap shock that I nearly destroyed on a chalky flinty down hill hitting a big square edge at about 40 and it blew through its travel and a nasty metal on metal clunk was felt that set my teeth on edge.