What creates a vehicle's 'soul' or 'character'?

[The Spin Doctor]

I remember the first time I saw that, I was waxing on about my 1000cc twin having loads of torque compared to an IL4 and someone politely showed me that his 1000cc IL4 stomped all over my bike everywhere in the curve. Most of us are so bad at separating fact from myth and BS in vehicle engineering/marketing that it's funny.

I seem to recall that the RGV250 produced more torque than the 883 Harley.

[Taipan]

My KTM was full of character. As you were riding it, it was vibrating and creeping forward, begging for more fuel. Like walking pit bull that pulls on the lead. Twicthy as fook and would scream and vibrate through the gears like a mad thing!!

My MT07 is so efficient, its quite dull by comparison in some ways. Riding it normally, you'd never know there was beast lurking within, but grab a grand full of throttle and it takes off, pulling hard and evenly through every gear with a sublime sound from the engine!!

Fuck character, the Jap bike wins every time for me, as there is every chance it will do that repeatedly and reliably, whereas I'd trust a KTM literally as far as I could throw one!

[weeksy]

My KTM was full of character. As you were riding it, it was vibrating and creeping forward, begging for more fuel. Like walking pit bull that pulls on the lead. Twicthy as fook and would scream and vibrate through the gears like a mad thing!!

My MT07 is so efficient, its quite dull by comparison in some ways. Riding it normally, you'd never know there was beast lurking within, but grab a grand full of throttle and it takes off, pulling hard and evenly through every gear with a sublime sound from the engine!!

Fuck character, the Jap bike wins every time for me, as there is every chance it will do that repeatedly and reliably. Whereas I'd trust a KTM literally as far as I could throw one!

That is pretty much what i've said a few times and why i don't own a 690 any more... the MT07, like the XSR900 before it is just simply effortless in terms of ownership. But as you say, in some ways, is that 'dull'.... dull that it works perfectly each and every time lol... sort of...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Really like that when a car (or bike) feels 'eager'. Some can go quickly but feel like you have to give them the equivalent of a jab in the ribs, some are quick but are a bit 'ho hum' about it, but occasionally you get in one that seems to go 'Waahaaay! Hang onto your hat, we're off! Wooohoo!'.

Actually you know what....now that I think back, I do have to mention my old Fiat Cinquecento!

It was the bright yellow "in betweeners" car. That thing had probably 45bhp I think, but in its own mind it was a Ferrari. It was huge fun planting your foot and hearing the little engine snarl, revs climbing like mad before you stick it into 3rd gear. At 37mph.

[KungFooBob]

Really like that when a car (or bike) feels 'eager'. Some can go quickly but feel like you have to give them the equivalent of a jab in the ribs, some are quick but are a bit 'ho hum' about it, but occasionally you get in one that seems to go 'Waahaaay! Hang onto your hat, we're off! Wooohoo!'.

Actually you know what....now that I think back, I do have to mention my old Fiat Cinquecento!

It was the bright yellow "in betweeners" car. That thing had probably 45bhp I think, but in its own mind it was a Ferrari. It was huge fun planting your foot and hearing the little engine snarl, revs climbing like mad before you stick it into 3rd gear. At 37mph.

My mate had the metallic purple sporting. He'd go out baiting Porsches in it on twisty roads.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

It will not surprise you to know there are whole teams of people who engineer in "the soul" of a vehicle. In fact I bet there are corporate definitions written down which quantify the "Ducatiness" of a motorcycle. And if that doesn't strike you as a soulless irony I dunno what would

Porsche engineer character into their cars, my 911 pops and bangs on the overrun, it's entirely engineered in and if I didn't know about it then I'd call it character, but because I know it's an engineered in feature to try and give it character, it strikes me as soulless.

Nowt as strange as folk.

People always talk about grunty V twins, but ISTR that if you take pretty much any of the big litre 4-cyl bikes and overlay their torque/power curves on a comparable V twin the 4 has more go pretty much everywhere.

Again, the mags used to love pointing that out.

I remember the first time I saw that, I was waxing on about my 1000cc twin having loads of torque compared to an IL4 and someone politely showed me that his 1000cc IL4 stomped all over my bike everywhere in the curve. Most of us are so bad at separating fact from myth and BS in vehicle engineering/marketing that it's funny.

You're getting traction with a twin due to the power pulses being bigger and further apart, the twin is like a hammer banging a nail in, an inline four is like pushing the nail in with a press.

[Count Steer]

Speaking of pops and bangs on the overrun, one car probably had the most recognisable overrun of all. Nothing sounds quite like a Moggy thou when you lift your foot off.

[Skub]

Some bike electronics allow you the choice of 'pops and bangs' on the overrun. On my bike I blocked off the PAIR valve system to stop it happening.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Some bike electronics allow you the choice of 'pops and bangs' on the overrun. On my bike I blocked off the PAIR valve system to stop it happening.

Yeah there's not that much reason an EFI bike would be popping and banging. If it's there it's generally 'cause it's been put there. AMG Mercs are the worst for it!

You're getting traction with a twin due to the power pulses being bigger and further apart, the twin is like a hammer banging a nail in, an inline four is like pushing the nail in with a press.

So what are we saying here? Hammers are more characterful than presses?

[Couchy]

Really like that when a car (or bike) feels 'eager'. Some can go quickly but feel like you have to give them the equivalent of a jab in the ribs, some are quick but are a bit 'ho hum' about it, but occasionally you get in one that seems to go 'Waahaaay! Hang onto your hat, we're off! Wooohoo!'.

Actually you know what....now that I think back, I do have to mention my old Fiat Cinquecento!

It was the bright yellow "in betweeners" car. That thing had probably 45bhp I think, but in its own mind it was a Ferrari. It was huge fun planting your foot and hearing the little engine snarl, revs climbing like mad before you stick it into 3rd gear. At 37mph.

Had an ex demo cinquecento sporting in 1997, forgot all about it till your post that was a great little fun car

[Cousin Jack]

Perhaps it's me, but many of my bikes/cars have had character.

The delight of a carbed BSA single on a cold misty morning - always ran better on cold damp days.

The 'unburstable' engine on my old 1200 Beetle - flat out at 70 mph, but it was happy to carry on all day. Well, until the clutch went - it had a small design flaw.

The first 'new' car I ever had- a Datsun 180B estate. Went like shit off a shovel and could keep up with the big boys in their Mercs coming back to London on the M4 on Sunday nights. Had a slight brake problem, I boiled them once going across Exmooor, and it rusted like shit.

The Granada Scorpio - last of the proper Granadas before that weird US body abortion. 2.9 litres of lazy torque and an autobox. Took some technique but it would hustle, and it was a run-out model, loaded with every extra known to mankind.

My daughter's first car, "Faithful Panda". Bog simple, but very honest car. No frills, no extras, it was the exact opposite of the Scorpio, but I loved it.

The 790 cc T100 Bonnie. Took me 5 years to learn to ride it properly, but it was a very forgiving bike for a born-again plonker, and when I finally got to ride it hard it would surprise many people. On paper it was crap, in practice it was a 'do anything' bike.

The Lexus IS200. Another car with a fair number of bells and whistles, but the engine was a peach - 2 litres of straight 6 that loved to rev, and sounded gorgeous. And bombproof, I drove it for 20 years.

The 800 VFR. OMG, after the Bonnie it felt like a rocket ship. Another 'do anything' bike, I commuted on it, I toured on it, I even took a detour off-road that included rough tracks and a ploughed field! To be fair, it wasn't at it's best off road.

The Lexus IS300h. Hybrid smoothness on a stick. Not the fastest car in the world, but fast enough, and I enjoy getting up to 60 mpg from a 2.5 litre petrol engine - just my contribution to saving the planet.

The CB500F. Small, nippy and fun on back road bimbles. On paper it is not a bike for crossing continents, but I plan on trying it anyway.


A pretty diverse bunch, but I have liked them all (and lots of others I won't bore you with). I suspect it is more about a mindset of looking for the best bits of what you have. All of them had flaws, some of them had major flaws, but I was too busy enjoying the good bits to worry about flaws.

[Dodgy69]

These little car's are great fun. Wife's got a 107 and I love it. Might get one if I see a nice low miler, that or an i10.

Seats down and a nice size boot.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I liked my Ford Puma, but what's not to like about a 125bhp Fiesta with stiff suspension, huge tyres and a close ratio gearbox.

[Rockburner]

These little car's are great fun. Wife's got a 107 and I love it. Might get one if I see a nice low miler, that or an i10.

Seats down and a nice size boot.

I really enjoyed driving the FIAT 500 I recently had - far roomier inside than I ever expected, and although a bit floaty in crosswinds on motorways it was again far better than expected for distance driving. I'd have another in a shot. (Mine was NOT the twin-air though... it was a 1.2 IL4 (iirc))

[mangocrazy]

For me its all about 'feel' of the engine but i think I have some weird synesthesia shit going on

It's probably why I've never been that enthused by IL4 engined bikes...
Perhaps I rode the 'wrong' IL4 if I was looking for character - I dunno...

I detested IL4s for 30 years, but I love my ZX7R.

(the ZZR600 shitter is there just to get a job done )

Curiously enough, I was very close to buying a new ZX7R back in the day. The red and purple ones looked sensational. But it was intended to be a 100 mile a day motorway commuter, so I got a VFR instead...

[Mr. Dazzle]

I bet your Porsche has artificial/augmented sound management too.

AKA playing vrrm vrrm noises through the stereo.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I bet your Porsche has artificial/augmented sound management too.

AKA playing vrrm vrrm noises through the stereo.

I know someone who worked on that for McLaren

[Cousin Jack]

I bet your Porsche has artificial/augmented sound management too.

AKA playing vrrm vrrm noises through the stereo.

I know someone who worked on that for McLaren

Does it need re-inventing?

I already have it on my Lexus. Fortunately there is an Off switch.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Like I said...whole teams of people.

There's isn't a vehicle designed in the last 20 years that hasn't been artificially massaged into the form it's in. "Soul" is distilled down to percentages of this, that and the other and then designed in.

[mangocrazy]

What a truly sad state of affairs; people driving round in their top-end Porsches etc. trying desperately to look bad and rad, but daren't fit a rorty exhaust in case they get tugged by the cops. So instead they can make believe they're bad boys and have their ego massaged by some clever algorithms and a sound system.