The Self-Driving Vehicles Thread

[Mr. Dazzle]

Good thing no-one ever gets run over by a human driver.

[The Spin Doctor]

Don't think I've ever claimed that AVs are perfect.

Didn't say you have. It was provided as a point of information.

And, as I've said before, a UK safety driver is a league apart from those in some other countries.

Interesting statement. Has anyone done a trial to see how they compare?

[Horse]

Toyota at the Tokyo Paralympics didn't - it ran down the athlete and injured him so badly he couldn't compete.

AFAIK, there are no AVs running on UK roads without a safety driver. Unfortunately your linked report doesn't say whether or not the Toyota had one.

The Toyota one sounds like half a league, half a league, half a league onward.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 021-08-27/
The vehicle had stopped at a T junction and was about to turn under manual control of the operator, who was using the vehicle's joystick control, when the vehicle hit the athlete going at around 1 or 2 kilometres an hour, Toyoda said. He said Paralympic officials had told him that the athlete, who remained conscious, was taken to the athlete village medical centre for treatment and was able to walk back to their residence.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2 ... t-olympics
Technically, the vehicle was not driving autonomously but was under manual control at the time of the incident.

Sooner we get rid of those pesky hoomans, eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58390290
Tokyo 2020: Toyota restarts driverless vehicles after accident

In a statement late on Monday, Toyota said: "The vehicle's sensor detected the pedestrian crossing and activated the automatic brake, and the operator also activated the emergency brake. The vehicle and pedestrians, however, came into contact before it came to a complete halt."

[iansoady]

I like "The vehicle and pedestrians, however, came into contact". A bit like an aeroplane crash being described as "unplanned contact with the ground".

[Horse]

I like "The vehicle and pedestrians, however, came into contact". A bit like an aeroplane crash being described as "unplanned contact with the ground".

In the New Avengers, a villain had found a way to control nature, he'd made birds fly into a plane.

Gambit: Do we know why the plane crashed?
Boffin: Yes
Gambit: Well, why?
Boffin: It hit the ground. We don't know why it hit the ground though.

[slowsider]

I like "The vehicle and pedestrians, however, came into contact". A bit like an aeroplane crash being described as "unplanned contact with the ground".

Some of those are CFIT - controlled flight into terrain.

[slowsider]

Don't think I've ever claimed that AVs are perfect.

Didn't say you have. It was provided as a point of information.

And, as I've said before, a UK safety driver is a league apart from those in some other countries.

Interesting statement. Has anyone done a trial to see how they compare?

BSI and SAE both do a guide for safety drivers during testing. I haven't compared them but it would surprise me if there was much divergence.

[Horse]

Don't think I've ever claimed that AVs are perfect.

Didn't say you have. It was provided as a point of information.

And, as I've said before, a UK safety driver is a league apart from those in some other countries.

Interesting statement. Has anyone done a trial to see how they compare?

BSI and SAE both do a guide for safety drivers during testing. I haven't compared them but it would surprise me if there was much divergence.

Work as imagined V work as done? UK safety drivers would not be catching up with their favorite (sic) tv shows. Typically, in cars, they will have their hands alongside the steering wheel.

1:21

[slowsider]

Work as imagined V work as done? UK safety drivers would not be catching up with their favorite (sic) tv shows.

Huh? Is that a Tesla reference?


I watched an Argo video today with driver AND co-driver during testing.

[Horse]

Work as imagined V work as done? UK safety drivers would not be catching up with their favorite (sic) tv shows.

Huh? Is that a Tesla reference?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54175359.amp

The back-up driver of an Uber self-driving car that killed a pedestrian has been charged with negligent homicide.

Elaine Herzberg, aged 49, was hit by the car as she wheeled a bicycle across the road in Tempe, Arizona, in 2018.

Investigators said the car's safety driver, Rafael Vasquez, had been streaming an episode of the television show The Voice at the time.

IIRC Uber had disengaged the automated braking system as part of their system installation.


[No idea who Argo are! This is ghe knly one I've heard of https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1024648/]

[slowsider]

https://www.argo.ai/

[slowsider]

And nearly 4 years is a long time in that tech space.

[The Spin Doctor]

I have no idea how you can guarantee that a 'safety' driver will actually be doing what they are supposed to be doing just because they are in the UK, any more than the US driver of the Uber who hit the pedestrian with the bicycle.

And

The vehicle had stopped at a T junction and was about to turn under manual control of the operator, who was using the vehicle's joystick control

that's not quite what I read.

In the report I saw, the shuttle had stopped because it had detected a security guard. Since that individual was not in the shuttle's path, the safety operator pressed an override button allowing the shuttle to move off again, unaware that the pedestrian was ahead of it.

[Horse]

I have no idea how you can guarantee that a 'safety' driver will actually be doing what they are supposed to be doing just because they are in the UK, any more than the US driver of the Uber who hit the pedestrian with the bicycle.

I can't, and wouldn't try to guarantee it. It's the same WAI WAD principle.

But, of the uk organisations I'm aware of, the safety driver wouldn't be streaming tv programmes.

that's not quite what I read.

In the report I saw, the shuttle had stopped because it had detected a security guard. Since that individual was not in the shuttle's path, the safety operator pressed an override button allowing the shuttle to move off again, unaware that the pedestrian was ahead of it.

Well, I looked at a few news sites. However, whether the situation that you have detailed or the one that I quoted, it seems the vehicle's automated systems were not totally responsible.

[Cousin Jack]

Perhaps one good thing that might come out of self-driving car stuff is a degree of commonality of the standards for applying signage. As a human I get pissed off when one 60mph road is festooned with steep hill/sharp bend signage, whilst a few miles away a fairly similar road with steeper hills and tighter bends makes do with 10% of the signage, or does not merit any warnings at all. It is almost as though each County Council makes up it's own mind on what it will sign, cross a border to another county and it's a different standard*. Even within a County a new or modified road usually merits lots of signs, an old road (that may be just as busy) has to make do with what it has got.

I don't want more signage, I actually think we have way too much, but if we must have them please can we be consistent. It makes my (human) head hurt, and AI robot will find it at least as baffling.

*Standard as actually applied, I know there is a national standard of some sort in a book.

[Horse]

Perhaps one good thing that might come out of self-driving car stuff is a degree of commonality of the standards for applying signage.

I used to regularly travel through Wales. It was really obvious when county borders were crossed, surfacing too.

I don't want more signage, I actually think we have way too much,

I'm always fascinated by how sparse signs and markings are in France. That said, population and traffic density is sparse too.

but if we must have them please can we be consistent. It makes my (human) head hurt, and AI robot will find it at least as baffling.

Depending on mapping used, AVs might not need any signs ...

*Standard as actually applied, I know there is a national standard of some sort in a book.

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (2016)

[Lutin]

Being tailgated? Soon you won't be able to tell whether it's a human fuckwit at the wheel or a Tesla - Tesla adds chill and assertive self-driving modes

Tesla's automated driver assist feature has added an assertive driving mode.

The setting will follow other cars more closely, change lanes more frequently, not leave the overtaking lane, and perform rolling stops.

Such driver behaviour by humans is often discouraged by safety groups.

However, it could sometimes be safer for an automated system to be more assertive, like a human driver, rather than being overly cautious, one motor safety expert said.

Not sure that this is in any way an improvement.

[Horse]

Surprised it's not a BMW innovation.

[Cousin Jack]

I'm always fascinated by how sparse signs and markings are in France. That said, population and traffic density is sparse too.

Not just France!

IME Norway, Austria, Switzerland and the USA tend to tell you ONCE at the start of a tricky section, and if you are fool enough to forget it then tough shit.

The most extreme example I have seen is in the states, Highway 12 as it follows the Lochsa River down from Lolo Pass. Normal-enough 'Bends' sign, with the caveat "For 99 miles". Similar signage in Austria on the Grossglockner "Dangerous mountain road for 25 miles" or something similar.

[The Spin Doctor]

Perhaps one good thing that might come out of self-driving car stuff is a degree of commonality of the standards for applying signage. As a human I get pissed off when one 60mph road is festooned with steep hill/sharp bend signage, whilst a few miles away a fairly similar road with steeper hills and tighter bends makes do with 10% of the signage, or does not merit any warnings at all. It is almost as though each County Council makes up it's own mind on what it will sign, cross a border to another county and it's a different standard*. Even within a County a new or modified road usually merits lots of signs, an old road (that may be just as busy) has to make do with what it has got.

I don't want more signage, I actually think we have way too much, but if we must have them please can we be consistent. It makes my (human) head hurt, and AI robot will find it at least as baffling.

*Standard as actually applied, I know there is a national standard of some sort in a book.

The principle are these:

1) signs go up where other people have got it wrong - usually seriously, often fatally and frequently repeatedly. The implication is that there is something deceptive about the next hazard that prevents people from judging it correctly. It doesn't mean a hazard without a sign isn't potentially a tough one, it's that it's one that you're likely to spot in time to do something about it.

2) signs are in context with the hazards you've already dealt with. So if you're on a road where the bends are fairly modest then there's a sudden sharper one, that bend will get flagged up. But if you're on a road with a whole series of tight bends, there's no point in signing them... but if you DO spot a sign, best pay attention - the chances are it's a LOT tougher than the ones you have just dealt with.

I have the book. It's titled something like 'Guidelines for Highway Design' and it's from the Institute of Highway Engineers. It's the de facto European standard.