Damon come out swinging with new HyperFighter electric super naked range

[Skub]

They don't seem to shout about weight figures.

I wonder why.

[Mr. Dazzle]

If you're really good at it you get a load of "orders" from big firms, preferably someone techy like Amazon or Facebook, employ loads of people and do a bunch of ted talks. Then you can do an IPO and float for billions before you've even delivered anything.

https://arrival.com/uk/en?gclid=CjwKCAi ... RsQAvD_BwE

[Supermofo]

That looks pretty decent except the gold plated bling. But that's a lot of wedge for a bike I'll probably have to stop for 45 mins at a fuel station for even an average weekend morning ride out. Maybe if I could charge whilst sitting in a nice cafe somewhere with a view but the reality is it'll be more likely at a petrol station somewhere having to drink machine coffee with a crap muffin which is really dull.

I'd be quite happy with a leccy bike I think but for me at the moment they are too expensive (for me) and not enough range/too much weight. Having said that I would consider one of those leccy scooters for work duties if I ever had to go back to the office a lot.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'd be much more confident in Triumph's offering (the TE1, which is basically an electric Speed Triple) when it actually lands. All these start ups have the same issue as Tesla; They suss out the electric bit, give or take, but they're still a bit rubbish at the "rest of a bike" element.

[weeksy]

I'd be much more confident in Triumph's offering (the TE1, which is basically an electric Speed Triple) when it actually lands. All these start ups have the same issue as Tesla; They suss out the electric bit, give or take, but they're still a bit rubbish at the "rest of a bike" element.

IT's a very interesting point. I mean anyone can throw a CAD drawing of a frame, a swingarm and throw it together.

However that doesn't mean it'll handle, it'll work right and ride nicely....

But i do assume that there's software that will decide pivot points, rake, trail and stuff and of course the changes within parameters and how they affect things.

The problem is, that the big boys are still building the ICE stuff, because they have to keep the money coming in for a while yet.

[The Spin Doctor]

I'd be much more confident in Triumph's offering (the TE1, which is basically an electric Speed Triple) when it actually lands. All these start ups have the same issue as Tesla; They suss out the electric bit, give or take, but they're still a bit rubbish at the "rest of a bike" element.

The chassis is the easy bit. After all, all you have to do is copy existing geometry and weight distribution, then calculate what's necessary to get the boingy and stoppy bits at each end to play nicely.

The electric motor is no problem either, there are plenty to use as a model. And you can certainly choose a motor to make the bike go fast if you want although cooling then needs more attention.

It's the battery which is the issue.

AFAIK, Triumph's battery - like all these other high performance / long range bikes - is still 'future-tech'.

We are waiting on new technology which will improve energy density.

There are some interesting research projects around which look very promising - for example I read about a combined battery / nano-capacitor which looks good and significantly ups the energy density whilst reducing charging time but the test battery is currently the size of a coin!

And there's no guarantee what works in a lab can be scaled up.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'd be much more confident in Triumph's offering (the TE1, which is basically an electric Speed Triple) when it actually lands. All these start ups have the same issue as Tesla; They suss out the electric bit, give or take, but they're still a bit rubbish at the "rest of a bike" element.

The chassis is the easy bit.

It's not.

Making one chassis is relatively straightforward. Making lots of them and integrating them with the rest of the bike so that it's reliable, possible to make in volume and profitable is way harder. Just look at how Tesla struggle/struggled with actually making lots of cars rather than a few.

[The Spin Doctor]

It's not.

Making one chassis is relatively straightforward. Making lots of them and integrating them with the rest of the bike so that it's reliable, possible to make in volume and profitable is way harder. Just look at how Tesla struggle/struggled with actually making lots of cars rather than a few.

Only if you're picky about ultimate handling qualities. Zero have managed to build a bike that handles well enough for the average rider.

And let's be honest, bikes like Damon are touting are NOT going to be volume production.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I don't mean the handling, I just mean the mundane aspect of making a bike where bits don't fall off and where you're not waiting 6 months for a part to arrive at the dealer. Even some ICE manufacturers can't do that yet

[Rockburner]

I'd be much more confident in Triumph's offering (the TE1, which is basically an electric Speed Triple) when it actually lands. All these start ups have the same issue as Tesla; They suss out the electric bit, give or take, but they're still a bit rubbish at the "rest of a bike" element.

The chassis is the easy bit.

It's not.

Making one chassis is relatively straightforward. Making lots of them and integrating them with the rest of the bike so that it's reliable, possible to make in volume and profitable is way harder. Just look at how Tesla struggle/struggled with actually making lots of cars rather than a few.

Yup - designing 1 part to do what it needs to do is relatively straightforward, designing/adapting the 10 or 20 machines/processes needed to MAKE that part is where it gets interesting. Yes some of that will be easy (washers are easy to press, you've probably already got a computer controlled press and you just need to make a new die for the right inner & outer diameter and thickness), but with a brand new part made from an exotic new material that's still being developed and it's limits still being found, it's a lot more interesting.

How much wear will the manufacturing processes take before the parts produced are out of spec and cause issues? (that's just 1 concern).

[The Spin Doctor]

I don't mean the handling, I just mean the mundane aspect of making a bike where bits don't fall off and where you're not waiting 6 months for a part to arrive at the dealer. Even some ICE manufacturers can't do that yet

Those aren't design issues so much as quality control and supply chain - which generally comes down to cost-cutting, plus a dash of disposable society.

If you're designing something like the CAKE Osa e-bikes https://ridecake.com/en/osa-category-page/ the handling side quite clearly pays the price since the focus is on utility and the ease of fitting the battery pack. But equally clearly, it's a motorcycle within the definition of two wheels and engine.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I don't mean the handling, I just mean the mundane aspect of making a bike where bits don't fall off and where you're not waiting 6 months for a part to arrive at the dealer. Even some ICE manufacturers can't do that yet

Those aren't design issues so much as quality control and supply chain - which generally comes down to cost-cutting, plus a dash of disposable society.

I think you're underselling it fella.

IME (and this is how I pay my mortgage remember!) most of the cost and difficulty in new vehicle tech is in reliably bringing it to market at anything more than prototype volume. Making something which works is hard, making something which works when it is in the hands of hte public is REALLY hard It's not a case of the bean counters getting their noses in or anything stereotypical like that, it's just the real world difference between an idea and practical profit making enterprise.

[The Spin Doctor]

I think you're underselling it fella.

IME (and this is how I pay my mortgage remember!) most of the cost and difficulty in new vehicle tech is in reliably bringing it to market at anything more than prototype volume. Making something which works is hard, making something which works when it is in the hands of hte public is REALLY hard It's not a case of the bean counters getting their noses in or anything stereotypical like that, it's just the real world difference between an idea and practical profit making enterprise.

If you were replacing a motorcycle with a twin rotor hoverbike, I'd agree.

But that's not what we're doing. We are essentially copying what worked before. Even an electric bike is still a motor BICYCLE and is taking proven tech when it comes to the chassis - just look at all the 'names' on the average bike, all standard kit.

Take suspension - the last innovations were using one shock rather than two at the rear and putting in a rising rate linkage, and turning the front forks upside down! It's bought off the shelf, as are the brakes. How you bend the bendy bits that link them up is up the designer, but the last time I looked, we're still using the same swing arm pivot that we've always done!

Even a electric bike motor is technology that's based on decades-old principles. The only really new stuff is the battery.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Even a electric bike motor is technology that's based on decades-old principles.

Only if you've done it before though, that's my point really. There's a whole heap of relatively mundane sounding stuff that goes into making a 'proper' production bike, stuff that Triumph will already have well established but Damon won't. Hence why I'd buy an electric Triumph but maybe not this Damon.

It's the same reason I probably won't buy a Tesla but I would buy a nominally inferior electric Merc or Hyundai which has shorter range - it's much better at all the rest of being a car, once you remove the EV aspect.

[The Spin Doctor]

Only if you've done it before though, that's my point really.

Wheels were invented in the 4th century BC at the same times the axle, and spoked wheels were used in chariots 2000 BC. Rear suspension uses the principle of the lever which helped erect the Pyramids and people have been using the principle of connecting different components together since the first axe head was tied to a stick! Screw threads date to 300 BC, steel came into use in the 18th century, and the first -wooden - steerable two-wheeler dates to 1818. Rubber tyres have been around since the 1850s.

Yes, we've refined our knowledge enormously and the materials have changed - but the fact is that a modern bike is only modern in the sense that it's using a few relatively new materials - it's using design principles that are ancient history.

There's a whole heap of relatively mundane sounding stuff that goes into making a 'proper' production bike, stuff that Triumph will already have well established but Damon won't. Hence why I'd buy an electric Triumph but maybe not this Damon.

It's the same reason I probably won't buy a Tesla but I would buy a nominally inferior electric Merc or Hyundai which has shorter range - it's much better at all the rest of being a car, once you remove the EV aspect.

So you do what Triumph did. You buy a bike from an established manufacturer, and reverse engineer it. That way you get all the variables in a ready-to-copy package.

Or you do what CAKE have done with the Osa - you go back to first principles when designing a utilitarian package.

Most of the issues I have heard about with Teslas are either trying to get the cutting edge technology piloting it to do things the autopilot simply isn't capable of doing, or quality control / supply chain issues. My brother's buddy is still waiting for a new hood for his six months on, after it became unlatched as he was driving.

[Mr. Dazzle]

So you do what Triumph did. You buy a bike from an established manufacturer, and reverse engineer it.

quality control / supply chain issues.

Like I said, you're under estimating how much time and effort that all takes. Everyone thinks "quality control" and "supply" are such simple thing, things you take care of after the real Engineering is finished. They're not

[The Spin Doctor]

Like I said, you're under estimating how much time and effort that all takes. Everyone thinks "quality control" and "supply" are such simple thing, things you take care of after the real Engineering is finished. They're not

Then you simplify.



You can almost count the mechanical components on two hands.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Try building a bike from a something like a Harris frame, it's not difficult to end up with a finished bike, what is difficult is to end up with a bike that doesn't need bolting back together every 1000 miles.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Then you simplify.

You can almost count the mechanical components on two hands.

Still way harder than you think. It almost doesn't matter how simple it is, there's still a shit load of work to do to ensure it all goes together properly.

Simplicity also doesn't save you because people expect it to be cheap. So you've saved a bunch of cost, but you're also selling it for less so you're back to square one. If anything it works against you, which is part of the reason there are loads of small volume manufacturers making million pound hyper cars or £60k Cafe racers but not many making shopping cars.

[slowsider]

Instead of knocking them we should be putting a website up of our own with a few fancy graphics and a new bike

Don't forget the Kickstarter page.

Dont need one if its electric