Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Mussels]

There are many more EVs available now than five years ago but I don't see much improvement. Ranges have got bigger but I expect that's more to do with massaging figures and bigger batteries than any real improvement.

[Mr. Dazzle]

IIRC currently it's 5% EV and 95% ICE driving around on the roads.

In terms of cars currently on the road maybe, but for example this year in the UK more than 20% of new cars sold were plug in on one way or another...and its plug in vehciles which are legal after 2030, not just pure EVs.

There are many more EVs available now than five years ago but I don't see much improvement. Ranges have got bigger but I expect that's more to do with massaging figures and bigger batteries than any real improvement.

Think about what you're saying here though. You can now buy an EV with a bigger battery than you could before, but in the same sized car for the same price. That's almost entirely down to the reduction price of batteries which in turn is down the rapid ramping up of the tech.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I did notice in the UK that car parks have more EV charging points.
I only noticed them because they were empty and the rest of the car park was full of ICE cars, I got a bit fed up looking at them to be honest because there was never anywhere to park and those empty spaces were a waste of time.

This is pure negative nelly though innit?

"No point buying an EV, there's no where to charge it"

"No point installing a charger, nobody has an EV".

Someone has to jump first....

Edit: Oh, and the other thing people always overlook is that maybe EVs ranges are actually good enough that you can just charge cheaply at home and they don't actually need to charge when they're out and about. Think about how many Teslas you see in normal spaces these days.

[Cousin Jack]

Hence my questions.

Illegal to sell ICE cars in 8yrs, the forum EV engineer saying his technology won't trickle down to wide scale consumers for 10yrs.
Jaguar saying they'll cease ICE production in 4yrs.

It's not adding up fellas, unless we're going to see new technology and infrastructure emerge soon, and unless everyone is literally talking bollocks then I'm expecting to see the technology that makes EV cars mainstream everywhere by 2025.

It doesn't add up. If the infrastructure doesn't ramp up massively electric cars will remain niche. And any party that continues to ban ICE stuff is likely to have a VERY rough time at the polls.
There are massive numbers of people without garages or even driveways (I am one) for whom a fully electric car is as much use as a chocolate teapot. Give me decent range (3-400 miles at a decent pace, with lights, heater and wipers on) and fast (10 min) charging, make sure there are adequate charge points everywhere (even in deepest darkest Cornwall) and I will probably buy an electric car. Miss out any part of that equation and I will not be voting for people who want to ban me from driving my ICE car.

[Yorick]

Just rent a car for the time you're in UK.

[Mr. Dazzle]

There are massive numbers of people without garages or even driveways (I am one) for whom a fully electric car is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

There are two people on my street who leave Nissan Leaf EVs parked outside their house on the street every night, not on charge. I have no idea where they charge them, but it ain't at home. They've had them a couple of years now, so it can't be that much of a ball ache...

Are they representative of the whole country? No of course not, but the whole "you need your own off road parking" argument is demonstrably not true in their case.

It also doesn't really matter if you vote for the EV banning party of not. If you can't buy an ICE car cause there are none on sale its all a bit irrelevant innit?

Edit: Oh BTW, the whole focus of the OEMs now is shifting to "EV pull" rather than "EV push". At the moment you buy an EV cause you're pushed into it by grants or whatever, those are the sorts of cars on sale now. The whole industry trend is now aiming towards making EVs people will be pulled toward cause they prefer it. The day is coming, probably closer than you think, when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

[MrLongbeard]

when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

But potato potato will still be cock of the roost

[Mr. Dazzle]

when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

But potato potato will still be cock of the roost

Well yeah thats the other option....grip onto the past so tightly it becomes your USP.

[Horse]

That's the other thing I was saying, it would make a lot of sense (for a company) if retrofits were simple and cost effective.
If the motors and batteries were easily changeable then it's sort of future proof, the car will still need to be basically car shaped and made of something durable and everything else including software can be upgraded.

So if Tesla sold their new cars with an upgrade solution included in a warranty, a bit like the Porsche warranty but it would cover new technology, then that might mean less fear over being left with an old technology car. For example, it wouldn't happen because of their sales strategy, but if Apple guaranteed that for ten years any new technology could be retrofitted inside your old iphone then we'd all probably be on iphone 3's or something.

Apple is an odd comparison, having been caught deliberately throttling older phones during updates!

How often have you heard products described as 'future proofed'? One of the more ridiculous marketing slogans.

For car manufacturers, where's the benefit? Even if they did offer an upgrade/retrofit service, it couldn't be either free or limitless (whether in time or technology).

And, one for Mr D: is it a reasonable guess that it wouldn't be 'just' changing the battery, the likelihood is that the entire charging system would need replacing too?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah. To charge quickly you've gotta dump loads of juice in right?

If a 50kWh battery can charge in 5 mins you must be dumping >600kW into it. That's gonna set a Tesla charging system on fire

Its something like trying run a muscle car V8 with the carb off a Vespa.

[Horse]

Yeah. To charge quickly you've gotta dump loads of juice in right?

If a 50kWh battery can charge in 5 mins you must be dumping >600kW into it. That's gonna set a Tesla charging system on fire

Its something like trying run a muscle car V8 with the carb off a Vespa.

And, again presumably, the same system for taking power out the battery wouldn't be the same either? Would even an old-tech motor be suitable?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Its gonna be different from car to car. IIRC the Porsche Taycan can already support 800kW charging with "normal" batteries, despite the fact there are very very few 800kW charge points.

600kW charging sounds like a lot (it is!) but you can buy an electric car with 700kW worth of motor (about 1000bhp) so obviously it can discharge the motor that fast and the wires can hack it.

I think the bigger issue is just how integrated the batteries are into the car, they're built well in there and changing them is about as economical as re engining an ICE car.

[Mussels]

Energy density and discharge rate are linked so in theory a low powered car can have higher capacity batteries for the space taken but will obviously take longer to charge, there's a sweet spot in there somewhere but it can't be all things to all people.

[Couchy]

As I’m firmly in the EV world with my business I should be a huge fan of them. I could afford one but it’s still cheaper to run a diesel and far easier to use with zero planning needed for any journey. But for those that are less fortunate they can buy a £4K car that’ll do 600 miles on a tank of diesel, I can’t ever see a day they’ll be able to buy a £4K electric car with decent range however no one really cares about them.

I’ll get an EV in the next few years but at the moment I can’t be bothered to run one and have to think about range and charging, luckily others can , but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

[Horse]

but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

A big tumbling block (swidt?) is falling revenues gor the government from tax on petrol and diesel.

There's loads of suggestions about how the shortfall might be made up but, whatever whichever, it's a fair guess that, in a few years, any cost per mile comparisons now will be irrelevant.

[Cousin Jack]

As I’m firmly in the EV world with my business I should be a huge fan of them. I could afford one but it’s still cheaper to run a diesel and far easier to use with zero planning needed for any journey. But for those that are less fortunate they can buy a £4K car that’ll do 600 miles on a tank of diesel, I can’t ever see a day they’ll be able to buy a £4K electric car with decent range however no one really cares about them.

I’ll get an EV in the next few years but at the moment I can’t be bothered to run one and have to think about range and charging, luckily others can , but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

No one cared about the people who wanted Brexit - until they started voting! There are an awful lot of people very reliant on £4k cars.

[Couchy]

As I’m firmly in the EV world with my business I should be a huge fan of them. I could afford one but it’s still cheaper to run a diesel and far easier to use with zero planning needed for any journey. But for those that are less fortunate they can buy a £4K car that’ll do 600 miles on a tank of diesel, I can’t ever see a day they’ll be able to buy a £4K electric car with decent range however no one really cares about them.

I’ll get an EV in the next few years but at the moment I can’t be bothered to run one and have to think about range and charging, luckily others can , but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

No one cared about the people who wanted Brexit - until they started voting! There are an awful lot of people very reliant on £4k cars.

The people who wanted brexit were mainly millionaires so they don’t count. Of the poorer people who wanted brexit they were just misled and are now paying the price of increased costs because of it. But these people will be the first ones priced off the road when the cheap cars become too expensive to run. They will be bus’d into work by the local warehouses and factories. Tbh they already do that locally here. There is no scope for very cheap electric cars that these folk will be able to afford.

[Yambo]

The people who wanted brexit were mainly millionaires so they don’t count. Of the poorer people who wanted brexit they were just misled and are now paying the price of increased costs because of it. But these people will be the first ones priced off the road when the cheap cars become too expensive to run. They will be bus’d into work by the local warehouses and factories. Tbh they already do that locally here. There is no scope for very cheap electric cars that these folk will be able to afford.

LOL!

[Cousin Jack]

No one cared about the people who wanted Brexit - until they started voting! There are an awful lot of people very reliant on £4k cars.

The people who wanted brexit were mainly millionaires so they don’t count. Of the poorer people who wanted brexit they were just misled and are now paying the price of increased costs because of it. But these people will be the first ones priced off the road when the cheap cars become too expensive to run. They will be bus’d into work by the local warehouses and factories. Tbh they already do that locally here. There is no scope for very cheap electric cars that these folk will be able to afford.

If the political parties think like you I can see a major political upset happening. Mushroom management works fine, until one day the mushrooms bite back. That's the problem with democracy, the little people can only be lead/pushed so far.

[slowsider]

No one cared about the people who wanted Brexit - until they started voting! There are an awful lot of people very reliant on £4k cars.

The people who wanted brexit were mainly millionaires so they don’t count. Of the poorer people who wanted brexit they were just misled and are now paying the price of increased costs because of it. But these people will be the first ones priced off the road when the cheap cars become too expensive to run. They will be bus’d into work by the local warehouses and factories. Tbh they already do that locally here. There is no scope for very cheap electric cars that these folk will be able to afford.

If the political parties think like you I can see a major political upset happening. Mushroom management works fine, until one day the mushrooms bite back. That's the problem with democracy, the little people can only be lead/pushed so far.

I'd guess that the revolution in personal transport has come about in your lifetime. Even a young lad like me can remember when many people couldn't afford a car - d/a sidecars anyone - much less two. The road-and-car building lobby triumphed over rail, but you still couldn't operate cities without it. If the democracy offers efficient public transport then the little people will use it. It won't fulfill everyone's needs everywhere, but neither does what we have, if you take environmental considerations into account.